Spring RTS Engine

wolas wrote: Instaling game as it is now. Download compile engine, download compile lobby, download game, put it here, say few magical words and dance a secret dance.
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Or another thing was you apt-get install springlobby install engine
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You're comparing the install of an engine (eg, Spring) vs. a game (eg, warzone2100). The real problem isn't Spring, it's the spring game writers not handling their own distribution. The correct way to install Spring for a player should actually be:

apt-get install balancedannihilation
apt-get install zero-k
apt-get install spring1944

Whether those packages exist and which spring/lobby versions they depend on should be the responsibility of game authors, not Spring.

Posted to encourage game authors to implement their own packages.

I realise it's not easy to support different distros but if you don't do this you're forcing the package manager to work blind. It won't know which version of Spring / Lobby you require so the engine / lobby might get updated with no warning and break your game.

this would work for singleplayer but would make problems for our current lobby system / multiplayer...

I thought at least one lobby had worked out a way to allow people to play their choice of engine version as long as the other players in the same game were using the same engine version.

Hey, yes, those lazy game devs. All day just sitting on there asses, playing games, doing nothing. They run with the hare and hunt with the hounds, hell they can travell up some stations more. Aint like those are all one man projects, who often get into troubles long before distribution is some luxery topic.

Get your stuff on springfiles.com like everyone else.

It's much easier if you get windoze

It's not that difficult a task since every game and every version of a game is bound to have the exact same install process (copy to user's game directory). Under gentoo the ebuild wouldn't even need to be edited, just renamed for each game/version to match the download package name and if necessary the min/max compatible spring engine version. I'll be using a system like this for my own game so anyone could just modify those scripts for theirs.

The only real issues:

1.) Springlobby will by default prompt to update itself and Spring. Under a distro with package management this is bad but I'm guessing it can be disabled as needed.

2.) The Spring concept of showing other games like zk in the lobby when you install eg kernel panic. I believe each game should launch its preferred lobby with other games hidden unless the player specifically requests to see other games or runs the lobby seperately. eg the script to start KP should look something like:

#!/bin/bash
/usr/games/springlobby-0.147/springlobby.exe --game KP --gamedir /usr/share/games/kp --datadir=~/.spring/ --enginedir /usr/games/spring-93.0

So each game specifies exactly which engine/lobby version to load.

I'd love for CT to have an installer, but I know absolutely 0% on what would be necessary for it to not only work, but keep working as the game is updated. Rapid does a great job for CT itself, but you're right, after the engine and lobby are thrown in it can be confusing. I will probably emulate someone else's idea when the time comes. I would like to learn more about what is necessary though.

Never have really sided with the 'only show your own games' viewpoint to be honest. Spring's USP is that there is a plethora of options for RTS lovers at their finger tips, and frankly, the community is too small for segregation.

FLOZi wrote:Never have really sided with the 'only show your own games' viewpoint to be honest. Spring's USP is that there is a plethora of options for RTS lovers at their finger tips, and frankly, the community is too small for segregation.

+10000000000000 .... if not more

FLOZi wrote:Never have really sided with the 'only show your own games' viewpoint to be honest. Spring's USP is that there is a plethora of options for RTS lovers at their finger tips, and frankly, the community is too small for segregation.

If people want to play "Spring" they can come here and DL it and play.

If people want to play Evolution RTS, they can go DL Evolution RTS and play it.

People completely fuck their spring installs up playing multiple games. So many BA players' installs are so fucked up that they can barely manage to play Evo or ZK, whereas if you install Evo via desura, it will work perfectly, each and every time.

You're welcome to your opinion, but if that is really your opinion, then why does S44 have an individual installer?

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@ the rest of you, the only lobby that supports what you need on windows and linux is NotaLobby. Period.

I've been down the barely functional SL road. No thanks. That was terrible. Moreover, in order to keep from trampling on one another, you need to use isolation. Otherwise, settings for one game will override settings for another and all kinds of retardedness ensues.

@Sanada, it isn't hard, but you need to have some way of updating the core (Everything that isn't CT). This is why using Desura is a good idea. Because you can push updates to the engine, settings, maps, lobby, missions, etc.

Without something like steam or Desura, you will have no end of issues with your users not syncing in the lobby due to incorrect engine versions, and various other inconsistencies.

That makes sense Forb. Maybe I will check Desura out, but that would mean working with mod/indieDB, which is such a hassle.

FLOZi wrote:Never have really sided with the 'only show your own games' viewpoint to be honest. Spring's USP is that there is a plethora of options for RTS lovers at their finger tips, and frankly, the community is too small for segregation.

Excactly. "One lobby and engine, multiple games" is not bad per se, it is just poorly communicated to players. Usually by the one-game installers.

If people want to play Evolution RTS, they can go DL Evolution RTS and play it.

Some days ago I wanted to play EvoRTs, so I made my lobby download evo-vXY.sdz and was able to play. How much simpler can it get?
I guess the other players did the same:
Check the names in replays, many are BA or 0k players. But with spring there are many other games and with correctly set up install, trying them is as easy as joining the room. If each game only comes as seperate installer.exe there would be a much higher barrier.

Of course there are things that could be better wrt multiple games on one engine, validAIs.lua or a way to have per-game uikeys.txt and widgets* etc but I guess eventually that will come...
*think that is already possible but not used

The concept that widgets can be shared between games was always a terrible idea and should have been changed a long time ago. Only about 2% of widgets are truly cross-game - the rest cause horrible conflicts and screen clutter. A per-game user widget directory would be the way forward.

I'm thinking of something like this (linux/zero-k example):
Anything not found in that directory defaults to the same file under ~/.spring/
Defaults for .<game>rc come from ~/.springrc

Whether this makes sense depends on whether you view a game as being a spring dependency or spring being a game dependency. My view is that spring and lobbies should be treated as a dependency of game, not the other way way around:

Eg, under a package manager:

mygame:
depends: spring >= 93.0
depends: springlobby >= 0.147 OR notalobby >= 1.0 OR zklobby > 1.0


Anything less just perpetuates the view that Spring is a "game" and not a "library" which is more technically accurate (ie, you can't play "Spring" but your game depends on it).

I do, or rather, used to do, since it's been over a year now, windows installer. The only way to have proper linux installer for Kernel Panic seem that I would have to eventually install a linux, learn it, and do it myself. Attempt to communicate what files KP mean to repo men were a failure.

If you'd like some help I have several flavours of linux available to me (ubuntu, gentoo, archlinux and centos). Gentoo is easy enough since the spring community already has an overlay (meaning we can push experimental stuff without waiting for official approval from Gentoo devs). The others will require meeting packaging guidelines and going through trial stages but since you aren't shipping any libraries with the game and you're GPL there really isn't much basis to be rejected on.

I'm serious. If you (or any game dev) want this just ask me. I'm happy to maintain for the foreseeable future.

Thanks, I'll PM you shortly after I make KP 4.5 then.

Why not just use Desura linux? With 93 static builds, it will be a piece of cake.

Forboding Angel wrote: People completely fuck their spring installs up playing multiple games. So many BA players' installs are so fucked up that they can barely manage to play Evo or ZK, whereas if you install Evo via desura, it will work perfectly, each and every time.

Because each game has it's own installer that doesn't respect the fact that Spring already exists?

You're welcome to your opinion, but if that is really your opinion, then why does S44 have an individual installer?

I am not nor have ever been in sole control of S44 and never been involved with its method of distribution.

he concept that widgets can be shared between games was always a terrible idea and should have been changed a long time ago. Only about 2% of widgets are truly cross-game - the rest cause horrible conflicts and screen clutter. A per-game user widget directory would be the way forward.

Absolutely, and 100% possible - gundam already did it. S44 only doesn't because of some trivialities.

FLOZi wrote:

Forboding Angel wrote: People completely fuck their spring installs up playing multiple games. So many BA players' installs are so fucked up that they can barely manage to play Evo or ZK, whereas if you install Evo via desura, it will work perfectly, each and every time.

Because each game has it's own installer that doesn't respect the fact that Spring already exists?.

You don't read so well... Existing spring users have their installs so fucked up from playing multiple games on one spring install, that they are nearly unsupportable.

BA players especially. Their shit is seriously fucked up.

The spring isolation mode implementation is not very good. It's functional, but it just isn't very good. Not every game wants to mix with other installs, that there is nothing wrong with that, so you can climb off of your self righteous high horse.

You don't read so well... Existing spring users have their installs so fucked up from playing multiple games on one spring install, that they are nearly unsupportable. BA players especially. Their shit is seriously fucked up.

Evidence/examples pls. If it's something genuinely in BA then I'm happy to try and help; I'm sure no BA devs intended BA to be lock its players in via incompatibility, and afaik it doesn't. On the other hand, it might just be because BA players have been around longest and had the most time to accumulate broken old user widget versions.