Spring RTS Engine

Just read a post above discussing the decline in spring players. Doubt this is the sole reason, but I'll share a story;

Convinced to try spring by friends. (Played TA back in the day)

Fumbled through the install. Watched a game, joined the next one.

Knowing I'd be rusty, so wanted to chose a position at the back... all taken. Take a spot up front. (map is DeltaSiegeDry)

Shortly after 2 people chose starting positions on-top of me.

Get ordered to move, but I've clicked ready.

Game starts. So does a vote to kick me.

Try to beat vote to the punch with a self destruct.

Get banned.

Sweet game guys.

Try to beat vote to the punch with a self destruct.

Lol.

Just mind that there is no single-player campaign where you learn. There is no other way than to humble yourself in front of the starplayers in the multiplayer games and overcome to bare some trolls or first games full of confusion. Self-deeds are just silly.

Happy humble gaming life (somewhere else)!

Not funny at all

This is what happens to many other newbies and I play a lot at this moment, I see a lot of newbies get insulted, sometimes kicked.

Ok, it will have many ppl saying "oh this 8v8+DSD-history again... bullshit, if ppl want to play it let them do it, if it is popular it is because they love it"

So the only advise I can give you and your friends:
- dont play 8v8+DSD
- join a small battle (6v6 max) and wait a little, there will be some players and probably you will not be insulted (at least much less frequently).

In addition, you will progress much faster playing small games than 8v8+ battles

Try avoiding DSD. Star players in DSD are noobs in the truest sense of the word.

In other games more players will be friendly to you as a beginner. But yeah there are a lot of elitists who will be complete douchebags to you. The problem is that those guys never get banned for how they act so they will carry on.

Floris wrote:

Try to beat vote to the punch with a self destruct.

Lol.

Just mind that there is no single-player campaign where you learn. There is no other way than to humble yourself in front of the starplayers in the multiplayer games and overcome to bare some trolls or first games full of confusion. Self-deeds are just silly.

Happy humble gaming life (somewhere else)!

Why did you completely ignore his entire story except that part?

Once I played a teamgame of CA on Folsom Dam Dry.
It was the version where you could spend your 1000 starting metal with 3x speedup on build time.

The newbie started in central front spot, at the edge of the startbox away from the metal spots.
Didn't bother to place mexes or build a base or anything, just walked to the center and started making a llt.
The opponent player (Confirmed by watching the replay later) used the starting buildpower boost to build a factory and arrived to the center with just 5 second delay.
Upon seeing the enemy commander, the newbie ran away. But only for a few seconds!
He then turned around and started building a T2 lab.
When (Surprise!!) enemy walked his comm in again, he ran and let the lab get dgunned.
About that time I was like FUCK THIS IM RUSH A KROW, built my own mexes at his abandoned start position, and stared building dragonteeth + hlt defense.
After getting back in safety behind the wall, the newbie started rebuilding the T2 lab (!!), of course in the most genious exposed position just after the d-fens wall (!!!).
This is where the (name redacted) lobby moderator who was temporarily springie autohost admin at that time comes in.
He has a chat with some random players and claims I took newbies mexes. And of course that I should 'give them back'.
So my completed Krow is flying over and I'm like "Okay already completed my tech might as well I guess?", select about half the mexes and give them by using share menu, then go micro the Krow.
It appears that the enemy techer decided to use the exact same teching strat except with the Tier 3 mechs and less metal spots, so I destroy his lab with partially built unit.
I'm all happy flying the Krow all over his base killing fusion when the game suddenly pauses.
And the lobby mod does a .cheat, switches to my team and gives away the remaining mexes, then unpauses.
That is bullshit so I start self destructing.
Then <1 second remaining on the countdown, I reconsider and cancel the shutdown to play out the game normally, and 2 seconds later I get kicked.
The newbie never complained about anything or claimed his mex were stolen or that he wants me to do something.

It is more acceptable to lose the 10% retarded newbies than have a USA politics supporter with mod flag turned on on his account decide what portions of your base should be turned over to random players.

Knowing I'd be rusty, so wanted to chose a position at the back... all taken. Take a spot up front. (map is DeltaSiegeDry)

Shortly after 2 people chose starting positions on-top of me.

Get ordered to move, but I've clicked ready.

Game starts. So does a vote to kick me.

Try to beat vote to the punch with a self destruct.

I'm going to look into my crystal ball to predict what really happened here:
You joined a team game with no idea how to play,
then 'chose' your start position like an autistic neckbeard instantly clicking ready, screwing the other players with a strategy planned out for that start spot.
Then you tried to self destruct, got banned before your 'clever' and righteous griefing plan completed, and came to the forums to defeat the evil haxxers.
Said forums have a disproportionally large population of people who don't play the game but have a vested interest in gaining more new players, (Just one will double the particular games playerbase XD)
so you are guaranteed the moral support.

Congratulations now go play Battlefield 3 or whatever you people do, usually you have to pay for psychoanalysis.

Andrej wrote:...

I'd like to see you banned Andrej. New players are critical to this game staying alive yet the community has players like you, who bash new players for not immediately grasping the many non-intuitive concepts of the game, turning them away from the game completely.

Taggz is a genuinely new player who wants to play and looks like someone who would get involved in the community (from his posting on the forum) but he just gets shit ingame for being a new, then comes to the forum where he gets more shit for being new. Sigh.

God with people like Andrej around how the fuck is spring losing players not getting new players? I'm stumped.

I completely agree with you Juzza, and like Niobium said I would like to see these people get banned. It would be a good example.

Be patient newbies! Dont listen to old-sad-gray-notcool players

Get involved with the community, discuss about problems you remark, contact nice people to get help, post on the forum, help newbies.
If you are the only doing this maybe nothing will change but if you are not alone things will change someday

And most important, dont become one of them, dont repeat what they did with you when you were a newbie.

Andrej wrote:Ranty McRant

You can't judge all based on one bad individual. The rest of us don't play games? Think again. Just because you don't see our names in the lobby doesn't mean we don't play.

If you ever played 2v2 with a noob you would realize that if you are a good teacher they will learn something new.

Try to beat vote to the punch with a self destruct.

Lol.

.... .... ....

Why did you completely ignore his entire story except that part?

Because this was his answer to the situation. Yes, the situation is a little bit sad, but thats just the way it is. I'm just explaining how to properly deal with it.

If you are new to a multiplayer game(community) you gotta be a little hungry to be of any use. If you don't understand this you need to stay playing single player games where your allies/opponents have no feelings or goals.
Computer multiplayer games are like being in a sportsteam. If you dont want to cooperate your team doesn't like having you on their team.
(This aint the sims or habbo-hotel, but a warfare game. People want to win....and have fun....and earn respect....and cooperate) The problem is that these goals are ranked diffrently for everyone from time to time.

This is just more a problem of BA having no single player missions or a system to help out the new people in multiplayer games.

Isn't half the appeal of DSD games to bitch and moan and grief your allies? If you don't enjoy that, maybe just pick another type of game. Which is possible even in BA.

And banning old players for "taking mexes" is just ridiculous beyond belief. Retaining old players should be as much a priority as getting new ones.
And banning one player will make other old players think about leaving too, since they have less people to play with, and retaining a few newbies for a while longer who are likely to leave even when treated well won't cure that anytime soon.

Key is to not play games with too varied skill levels between players, that's just frustrating for everyone.



And yeah, not wanting to play with a newbie is kinda understandable. Ruining everyones game with selfd because you are a newbie they don't want to play with, is a worse attitude imo. But that's ok, seems like the type of person who will fit right in to the DSD culture.

There was only about a ~2 month overlap where CA had both boost and commander dguns, over 3 years ago. That's a long time to hold a grudge over a game but at least you got it out now. :D

That sounded like a moderator problem though, not a new player problem.

And in the case of Andrej.... that was some sad adminning indeed.

That admin solving problems that are non-existant Power 'corrupts' some times. Just a lack of interrest in the game/player situation.



And nio..... you would have been perm banned too if we would moderate like that.

Which gold-medal / vet players (wouldnt) have been banned?

luckywaldo7 wrote:There was only about a ~2 month overlap where CA had both boost and commander dguns, over 3 years ago. That's a long time to hold a grudge over a game but at least you got it out now. :D

That sounded like a moderator problem though, not a new player problem.

More strikingly I don't think there was any overlap with boost and no overdrive.

This is just more a problem of BA having no single player missions or a system to help out the new people in multiplayer games.

Yes it could help to avoid this situation but it is not a reason to rage over a new player. We should care about them and help them improve.

Isn't half the appeal of DSD games to bitch and moan and grief your allies? If you don't enjoy that, maybe just pick another type of game.

1st. Who told you DSD is about this?
2nd. I could say you the same, if you want "bitch and moan" just pick another type of game. Or it was really decided somewhere that BA was donne for it?

Retaining old players should be as much a priority as getting new ones.

True!
Which is completely different to say that keep a bad behavior vet is important, just because we dont have enough players. A bad behavior player can make many newbies leave and stop playing and this is worse.

Key is to not play games with too varied skill levels between players, that's just frustrating for everyone.

I dont agree at all, this is why there is a balance. pro+newbie against pro+newbie can be really fun. Only 1v1 would be frustrating with too varied skill players.

And yeah, not wanting to play with a newbie is kinda understandable. Ruining everyones game with selfd because you are a newbie they don't want to play with, is a worse attitude imo. But that's ok, seems like the type of person who will fit right in to the DSD culture.

If teams are balanced there is no problem to play with a newbie and they wont self+D without any reason.

marciolino wrote:

Isn't half the appeal of DSD games to bitch and moan and grief your allies? If you don't enjoy that, maybe just pick another type of game.

1st. Who told you DSD is about this?

Nobody had to tell me, I figured it out all by my own!

Key is to not play games with too varied skill levels between players, that's just frustrating for everyone.

I dont agree at all, this is why there is a balance. pro+newbie against pro+newbie can be really fun. Only 1v1 would be frustrating with too varied skill players.

And yeah, not wanting to play with a newbie is kinda understandable. Ruining everyones game with selfd because you are a newbie they don't want to play with, is a worse attitude imo. But that's ok, seems like the type of person who will fit right in to the DSD culture.

If teams are balanced there is no problem to play with a newbie and they wont self+D without any reason.

It can be ok, but more often than not having a useless newb on both sides is not that interesting for the passable players.

if you have ever heard of a player on BA know as smellliott this is me :)

i am no where near the best player by a long shot i cant manage ECO for shit.

the only thing i can do is samson spam and im still quite bad at that

noobs should be given a chance

we where all noobs once.

an idea i had was Ba tutorial videos for MP made by experienced players then posed on a vid tutoral section on the BA forums. wut u guys think? :)

crazy dave wrote: the only thing i can do is samson spam and im still quite bad at that

I understand that most people play to win, so that's why they have a hard time dealing with having noobs on their team. And I don't think it's reasonable to change that attitude. We simply can't expect to change it. Also, spring's community is very old so most players are experienced. That makes the problem even worse.

So what can we reasonably do? Honestly I think the biggest problem you guys have is having too few games that are too large. In the days before autohosts, it was most common to have 3v3-5v5 games with a number of 1v1 games. Logistics made bigger games too difficult most of the time. The smaller games allowed for two very important things:
1. Noobs could get their own games
2. Noobs were coached by the players on their team because there were only a few players, and every one really mattered

I think that the second point is the biggest. When you have only 2 other players on your team in a 3v3, the experienced players can spam the noob with advice and he learns very quickly. I haven't played spring really in a few months at least, but in those 8v8 games I'm almost always the only one to help out the noobs with legit advice, with something besides just yelling at them. In big games people just forget about the noobs.

So honestly, I think your best bet is to stop playing 8v8 DSD. Will you? No. I think that if you get rid of autohosts, you'll solve a lot of problems. Will you? I doubt it.

The autohosts just promote having huge games. And I think they're what's hurt spring the most.

I must say it's also possible that spring's just an old game and old games do die eventually...but I don't really think anyone can prove that one way or the other.

No matter what spring BA will probably be my favorite RTS for the rest of my life. Nothing matches its complexity, required skill, steep learning curve, and fun. I've logged over 1200 hours and I still learn new tricks sometimes haha. :D