A formal Reply to "The Decline of BA" - And a "Suggestion"
Posted: 04 Sep 2010, 05:35
Hi everyone! I originally posted this as a reply to the "Renny's thread about the decline of BA players" thread, but I beleive it deserves its own thread after all.
This thread is about what I see that is wrong with the BA community, and the one most important thing that i feel would go a long way to righting the problems that currently exist.
Anyways, here's the post from the other thread, reproduced more or less verbatim:
I only started playing BA about 6 months ago, so I think I missed the "glory days" that everyone keeps talking about. Still, I have a few observations on my own personal experiences with Spring and BA in particular.
1. This game is not nub-friendly. It reminds me of "Netstorm: Islands at War" - maintained and played by a very small community, who have exceptionally little tolerance for people who "don't get it". It's a product of group think, in my opinion. The result is that new players (even if they love the game itself) are often turned-off and stop playing because of the attitude of the regular players. By attitude I mean things like:
a) "Don't play right away, spec a few games first"
Now, this makes perfect sense to those of us who have played 8vs8 on DSD, as one nub in the wrong spot can ruin a game. But it's NOT a very welcoming or encouraging thing to hear when you are playing a game for the first time. Most people, upon hearing this and getting kicked/com-bombed in their first game will just say "@#^& it" and find another game to play. That is a fact, and it's NOT a good thing for the community if you are trying to rejuvenate it!
b) "The little dots" and text beacons
These are some of the coolest features of the game, but for a new player they can be VERY intimidating. It goes hand in hand with point a)". It can make you feel very self-conscious when you suddenly see 5 other players "looking over your shoulder" and making disparaging comments about your build-order or playing skills in your first game. It's tantamount to a public humiliation; and there are only a few personality types that will be willing to "tough through it" and learn the ropes unless they already happen to have a friend on the inside who can help them out.
To tell you the truth, if it hadn't been for the friendly encouragement I received from a few different players (Meatme, Hobojoe, and others) in my first few games when EVERYONE ELSE was giving me shit, I would have stopped playing too.
2. 8vs8 DSD plays WAY differently than other maps. OMG, it took me months to figure this out. Just yesterday, I found myself trying to tech DSD-style on KappaBasin. Muppet almost shat his lungs out (I got him killed by not helping!) and gave me so much crap! But, the very next game, after a FEW POLITE POINTERS, I performed more than adequately, and our team won the game. Now this example highlights two important things:
a) Most nubs' first experience with BA is with bots, and then 8vs8 DSD. So, even after they "learn the ropes" on DSD, they're really still quite novice and inexperienced (like me), and find other maps very intimidating. It can be hard to know what to do. And people don't have the time or patience to "watch" EVERY map before they play on it!
b) With a LITTLE PATIENT ENCOURAGEMENT, people CAN and WILL bridge the gap, and be willing to play other maps and with smaller teams. But people who are good need to be willing to COACH and ASSIST novice players. THIS is how you build a community, NOT by ridiculing and embarrassing people for screwing up or teching at the wrong time when, quite possibly, this is the first time they've played a particular map, and they really have no idea how it should be played.
I understand how hard this is, but it is of the utmost importance. I was a faithful supporter of Netstorm and its community for 10 years. Near the end, when I finally stopped playing, it was down to two-dozen or so dedicated players, all of whom were disturbingly strong experts at the game. New people who showed up were either ridiculed and chased out of the community because they couldn't keep up with the learning curve, or else they (if they showed any promise) were instantly adopted by an elitist "clan" that trained them to be partisan, and unfriendly to outsiders and newcomers.
These are my observations.
Now, here are some of my conclusions:
1. I agree with the OP, 8vs8 DSD is BAD for the community, and the mod. It encourages group think, makes it hard for new people to learn the ropes, and discourages people from paving their own trails. More numerous, smaller games, would VASTLY benefit this community.
But, it's not something easy to do. Group think and clan tendencies mean that people will naturally "glom" together in big games where responsibility is spread more thinly. This is why people prefer big games - they're not as individually responsible for the outcome, so they experience less shame when their team loses!
But what should this tell us? Why are people feeling ashamed when they lose? It should tell us that there is too strong of an adversarial attitude in the game! Oh man, and it's really bad in BA, worse even than in Netstorm.
No one ever says "gg" after the game, or hardly ever. This might seem like an empty courtesy, but it's IMPORTANT! It makes people feel GOOD about the game they played, and want to play again. Instead, people don't say "gg" because "It wasn't a good game, and (insert excuse here)". Either it wasn't balanced, or it was a "fail game" or always there is a reason why people can't just be courteous to one another once the game is over. This leaves people feeling vexed and unhappy after a game has finished. That's not good for the community.
2. PSET team-stacking, and clan-stacking. This is, in my opinion the single biggest problem with BA after the predominance of 8vs8 DSD (though in fact the two problems are intrinsically linked).
Many of the frustrations and discourtesy i detailed in my above conclusion are also partly the result of this absurdity. PSET should not be allowed, it simply shouldn't, or else it should be severely restricted, or team balancing should override it. I don't understand all the technical issues behind this, so maybe there is a reason why I'm wrong, but I see this as a big problem.
The result of this pset nonsense is that you get one team of 8, all on mumble, most of them in the same clan, playing against a team of 8 other people who are not in communication with each other, and are not used to playing with each other. Either the stacked team wins, or else they ruin the game "for the lulz" with com-bombing or co-op strats or some other nonsense.
This is INFINITELY WORSE than a noob "ruining" the game by simply being bad. 1000x worse, in every way, because these people should KNOW BETTER. And yet hardly ever do people get called out for this, while noobs are almost GUARANTEED to be hassled for "ruining" a game by playing before they are ready. How absurd is this?
You are trying to GROW AND PRESERVE your community. Why are you letting this crap happen??? It turns people off, and ruins the game for half the people playing!
Clans might argue that they have a right to "play together", but why? WHY? If they're really any good, they should be playing AGAINST EACH OTHER to test their mettle and their strategies. Always playing on the same team is the sure sign of a cowardly organization that have little trust in one another. What are they afraid of? Ridicule from their fellow members when they lose? Losing their status as "The best"? Sound like an insecure and unstable organization to me...
3. And this is my most important suggestion:
A new clan needs to be created. NEEDS to exist in order for this community to Survive. A new Clan; dedicated to finding, embracing, encouraging, and coaching new players and new members of the Spring community (Or BA community or whatever the scope possible) so that they feel as welcome and accepted as possible. Rules for membership in this clan would be simple, and strictly enforced:
a) 100% dedication to gentlemanly conduct and sportsmanship. No excuses, no whining, no bossing, no rudeness. Only good sportsmanship, courtesy, and encouragement to those who need it most.
b) Members would have a responsibility to tutor new players, and give them constructive help and advice, coaching them through games, and teaching them the ropes. Not just helping if they ask, but actively OFFERING these services. Ie, you see a guy struggling in one of his first games: Take him under your wing. No negativity, just patience and support.
c) Members of this clan would become, almost inevitably, the most respected members of this community, and for that reason, only the most responsible and dedicated players would be invited into this clan. Skill would be a minor requirement, experience would be more important. But MOST important would be sportsmanship, friendliness, dedication, and maturity.
I can't do it, though I wish I could. I'm not a strong enough player, I haven't been around long enough, and I don't have the right attitude. I, too, can get caught up in negativity. I'm not mature enough to be a member of this Movement. But I know some of you are! I've played with you in game! You gave me help when I needed it, and I've seen you give others help when they needed it.
Look inside yourselves, and I think you'll be able to tell if you have the Right Stuff. This Clan needs to become a reality, or the Spring community and BA will eventually die, just as I've seen so many other community-supported efforts whither away due to elitism and factional squabbling.
That's it. That's all I have to say. I want to see two kinds of replies to this thread:
1. People stepping up and saying they're ready to take on the challenge.
and;
2. People encouraging on those who they know are ready to do so.
But other comments are, of course, welcome.
Thank you for your time.
This thread is about what I see that is wrong with the BA community, and the one most important thing that i feel would go a long way to righting the problems that currently exist.
Anyways, here's the post from the other thread, reproduced more or less verbatim:
I only started playing BA about 6 months ago, so I think I missed the "glory days" that everyone keeps talking about. Still, I have a few observations on my own personal experiences with Spring and BA in particular.
1. This game is not nub-friendly. It reminds me of "Netstorm: Islands at War" - maintained and played by a very small community, who have exceptionally little tolerance for people who "don't get it". It's a product of group think, in my opinion. The result is that new players (even if they love the game itself) are often turned-off and stop playing because of the attitude of the regular players. By attitude I mean things like:
a) "Don't play right away, spec a few games first"
Now, this makes perfect sense to those of us who have played 8vs8 on DSD, as one nub in the wrong spot can ruin a game. But it's NOT a very welcoming or encouraging thing to hear when you are playing a game for the first time. Most people, upon hearing this and getting kicked/com-bombed in their first game will just say "@#^& it" and find another game to play. That is a fact, and it's NOT a good thing for the community if you are trying to rejuvenate it!
b) "The little dots" and text beacons
These are some of the coolest features of the game, but for a new player they can be VERY intimidating. It goes hand in hand with point a)". It can make you feel very self-conscious when you suddenly see 5 other players "looking over your shoulder" and making disparaging comments about your build-order or playing skills in your first game. It's tantamount to a public humiliation; and there are only a few personality types that will be willing to "tough through it" and learn the ropes unless they already happen to have a friend on the inside who can help them out.
To tell you the truth, if it hadn't been for the friendly encouragement I received from a few different players (Meatme, Hobojoe, and others) in my first few games when EVERYONE ELSE was giving me shit, I would have stopped playing too.
2. 8vs8 DSD plays WAY differently than other maps. OMG, it took me months to figure this out. Just yesterday, I found myself trying to tech DSD-style on KappaBasin. Muppet almost shat his lungs out (I got him killed by not helping!) and gave me so much crap! But, the very next game, after a FEW POLITE POINTERS, I performed more than adequately, and our team won the game. Now this example highlights two important things:
a) Most nubs' first experience with BA is with bots, and then 8vs8 DSD. So, even after they "learn the ropes" on DSD, they're really still quite novice and inexperienced (like me), and find other maps very intimidating. It can be hard to know what to do. And people don't have the time or patience to "watch" EVERY map before they play on it!
b) With a LITTLE PATIENT ENCOURAGEMENT, people CAN and WILL bridge the gap, and be willing to play other maps and with smaller teams. But people who are good need to be willing to COACH and ASSIST novice players. THIS is how you build a community, NOT by ridiculing and embarrassing people for screwing up or teching at the wrong time when, quite possibly, this is the first time they've played a particular map, and they really have no idea how it should be played.
I understand how hard this is, but it is of the utmost importance. I was a faithful supporter of Netstorm and its community for 10 years. Near the end, when I finally stopped playing, it was down to two-dozen or so dedicated players, all of whom were disturbingly strong experts at the game. New people who showed up were either ridiculed and chased out of the community because they couldn't keep up with the learning curve, or else they (if they showed any promise) were instantly adopted by an elitist "clan" that trained them to be partisan, and unfriendly to outsiders and newcomers.
These are my observations.
Now, here are some of my conclusions:
1. I agree with the OP, 8vs8 DSD is BAD for the community, and the mod. It encourages group think, makes it hard for new people to learn the ropes, and discourages people from paving their own trails. More numerous, smaller games, would VASTLY benefit this community.
But, it's not something easy to do. Group think and clan tendencies mean that people will naturally "glom" together in big games where responsibility is spread more thinly. This is why people prefer big games - they're not as individually responsible for the outcome, so they experience less shame when their team loses!
But what should this tell us? Why are people feeling ashamed when they lose? It should tell us that there is too strong of an adversarial attitude in the game! Oh man, and it's really bad in BA, worse even than in Netstorm.
No one ever says "gg" after the game, or hardly ever. This might seem like an empty courtesy, but it's IMPORTANT! It makes people feel GOOD about the game they played, and want to play again. Instead, people don't say "gg" because "It wasn't a good game, and (insert excuse here)". Either it wasn't balanced, or it was a "fail game" or always there is a reason why people can't just be courteous to one another once the game is over. This leaves people feeling vexed and unhappy after a game has finished. That's not good for the community.
2. PSET team-stacking, and clan-stacking. This is, in my opinion the single biggest problem with BA after the predominance of 8vs8 DSD (though in fact the two problems are intrinsically linked).
Many of the frustrations and discourtesy i detailed in my above conclusion are also partly the result of this absurdity. PSET should not be allowed, it simply shouldn't, or else it should be severely restricted, or team balancing should override it. I don't understand all the technical issues behind this, so maybe there is a reason why I'm wrong, but I see this as a big problem.
The result of this pset nonsense is that you get one team of 8, all on mumble, most of them in the same clan, playing against a team of 8 other people who are not in communication with each other, and are not used to playing with each other. Either the stacked team wins, or else they ruin the game "for the lulz" with com-bombing or co-op strats or some other nonsense.
This is INFINITELY WORSE than a noob "ruining" the game by simply being bad. 1000x worse, in every way, because these people should KNOW BETTER. And yet hardly ever do people get called out for this, while noobs are almost GUARANTEED to be hassled for "ruining" a game by playing before they are ready. How absurd is this?
You are trying to GROW AND PRESERVE your community. Why are you letting this crap happen??? It turns people off, and ruins the game for half the people playing!
Clans might argue that they have a right to "play together", but why? WHY? If they're really any good, they should be playing AGAINST EACH OTHER to test their mettle and their strategies. Always playing on the same team is the sure sign of a cowardly organization that have little trust in one another. What are they afraid of? Ridicule from their fellow members when they lose? Losing their status as "The best"? Sound like an insecure and unstable organization to me...
3. And this is my most important suggestion:
A new clan needs to be created. NEEDS to exist in order for this community to Survive. A new Clan; dedicated to finding, embracing, encouraging, and coaching new players and new members of the Spring community (Or BA community or whatever the scope possible) so that they feel as welcome and accepted as possible. Rules for membership in this clan would be simple, and strictly enforced:
a) 100% dedication to gentlemanly conduct and sportsmanship. No excuses, no whining, no bossing, no rudeness. Only good sportsmanship, courtesy, and encouragement to those who need it most.
b) Members would have a responsibility to tutor new players, and give them constructive help and advice, coaching them through games, and teaching them the ropes. Not just helping if they ask, but actively OFFERING these services. Ie, you see a guy struggling in one of his first games: Take him under your wing. No negativity, just patience and support.
c) Members of this clan would become, almost inevitably, the most respected members of this community, and for that reason, only the most responsible and dedicated players would be invited into this clan. Skill would be a minor requirement, experience would be more important. But MOST important would be sportsmanship, friendliness, dedication, and maturity.
I can't do it, though I wish I could. I'm not a strong enough player, I haven't been around long enough, and I don't have the right attitude. I, too, can get caught up in negativity. I'm not mature enough to be a member of this Movement. But I know some of you are! I've played with you in game! You gave me help when I needed it, and I've seen you give others help when they needed it.
Look inside yourselves, and I think you'll be able to tell if you have the Right Stuff. This Clan needs to become a reality, or the Spring community and BA will eventually die, just as I've seen so many other community-supported efforts whither away due to elitism and factional squabbling.
That's it. That's all I have to say. I want to see two kinds of replies to this thread:
1. People stepping up and saying they're ready to take on the challenge.
and;
2. People encouraging on those who they know are ready to do so.
But other comments are, of course, welcome.
Thank you for your time.
)