Spring RTS Engine

Posted: **25 Jul 2010, 06:16**

Hey all,

I know this may sound like a far fetched idea, but would anyone be interested in reattempting in setting up some set time for regs to meet up and try to play? I know, I know, it would be better just to have games running, but Im wondering if something was setup if we could get a couple games together with less of the newbie mess(not that Im agianst teaching).

Posted: **25 Jul 2010, 09:20**

I thought this was suggested already and people made some times and some fun or something. There was definitely a thread about setting times to play CA.

Posted: **25 Jul 2010, 16:00**

Well for a while there was a "Veterans Hour" each week. Unfortunently, player drop off kinda killed it. Right now although Im seeing a possible use of it, especially with the Mex Share discussion that seems to be going on.

Posted: **26 Jul 2010, 05:45**

What timezone were you thinking of? Since we have a kinda spread playerbase, might need two.

Posted: **27 Jul 2010, 03:30**

Depends on what works best for people. In my case between like 5pm and 1 am EDT(GMT -5) works the best.

Posted: **04 Aug 2010, 05:14**

We tried this, it doesnt work, there are three distinct CA timezones: USA, Euro, and Australia.

I think its actually one of the reasons why the euro players (jK, licho, quant, say) are all team players and the Australian players (Google and i, and det who sleeps in our timezone) are all 1v1 players.

We cant make a time which is convenient to everyone. You can try, by all means (I suggest just picking the time when one subset of players is usually online and trying to arrange things). Though you will also get noobs during this time, and they have to play somewhere. But if you want 'pro' games, i'd suggest you play 1v1.

Posted: **04 Aug 2010, 05:22**

Ah k. Well the trouble with 1v1 for me is I am not the greatest player, and once it gets under 3v3 most times, it really shows. More of although was seeing if I could setup a game for better testing when it comes to the mex share arguments and such, but at the same time the game is starting to get back to big games and the newers players are beginning to mature, so that may be moot.

Still if anyone is interested, post times and maybe somehting could be setup.

Posted: **05 Aug 2010, 18:41**

Why do you have to be good to play 1v1?

Just find someone of your own skill level.

The only difference in 1v1 is you have to rely only on yourself to win or lose. Its very unforgiving that way, but it also means you learn a lot faster from your mistakes, and you dont have to toil with useless noob allies or end up fighting someone vastly superior to you and having to be carried by your teammate. You get to experiment, and perfect your B/O, and if you lose to jeffies because your new B/O sucks you can immediately have another game rather than waiting around for the game to finish.

1v1 can and should be played at every skill level.

Posted: **05 Aug 2010, 18:49**

Im not saying that you have to be good. Im just saying that the areas I lack are even greater magnified when I play 1v1. Yes I can and should learn from 1v1, but in most cases it just turns into me getting shalackered.

Posted: **05 Aug 2010, 18:50**

Kenku wrote:Im not saying that you have to be good. Im just saying that the areas I lack are even greater magnified when I play 1v1. Yes I can and should learn from 1v1, but in most cases it just turns into me getting shalackered.

Don't expect to beat players who've been playing for years, and remember there's a fair few smurfs around who can lure you into thinking they're the same skill level as you

Posted: **05 Aug 2010, 19:01**

Jazcash wrote:
Kenku wrote:Im not saying that you have to be good. Im just saying that the areas I lack are even greater magnified when I play 1v1. Yes I can and should learn from 1v1, but in most cases it just turns into me getting shalackered.
Don't expect to beat players who've been playing for years, and remember there's a fair few smurfs around who can lure you into thinking they're the same skill level as you

Yea, yea I know. This is why I avoid the 1v1 most times.

But Im digressing. As I said, the main reason I had brought this up wasn't so much for more for my own need, as so much to better test stuff, since there have been complaints about things like communism, which were affected by newer players.

Posted: **30 Nov 2010, 13:58**

playing 1v1 improves your ability to play the game at exponential speed compared to 3v3+ teamgames

Posted: **30 Nov 2010, 14:53**

Seeing as you've bumped this thread, I guess I might as well post the chatlog from a conversation I had 4 minutes ago.

1:09:49 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> u busy?
[1:09:56 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Not really
[1:09:59 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Just watching random comedy videos
[1:10:48 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> haha nice
[1:11:10 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> was jw if yee could give me some trainin/tips
[1:11:42 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Tip #1
[1:11:47 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Play more than you spec
[1:12:05 PM] <[Fx]Droid> A few people have got their Veteran ranks by speccing for years
[1:12:07 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Instead of playing
[1:12:13 PM] <[Fx]Droid> And as a result, they suck
[1:12:19 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Speccing can be useful
[1:12:38 PM] <[Fx]Droid> But only if you intend to get inspiration/tips and ideas of how to play well, then carry them out
[1:12:54 PM] <[Fx]Droid> It's no good watching game after game without playing
[1:13:11 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> yeaa
[1:13:14 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Tip #2
[1:13:22 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> if i see a good player playing i always watch them
[1:13:25 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Experience, comes with time
[1:13:37 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Some people have natual skill, and can play well in their first dozen of games or so
[1:13:46 PM] <[Fx]Droid> But a lot of people don't have this, including me
[1:13:59 PM] <[Fx]Droid> So don't be put off if you can't compete with the top players when you've only been playing for a couple months
[1:14:10 PM] <[Fx]Droid> It took me a year to be average
[1:14:14 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Then another 2 years to be good
[1:14:19 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Well
[1:14:23 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Another year to be good
[1:14:28 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Then another year after that to be pro
[1:14:34 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> :D
[1:14:39 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Tip #3
[1:14:50 PM] <[Fx]Droid> 8v8DSD or 8v8 any map isn't gonna teach you anything
[1:15:02 PM] <[Fx]Droid> If you want to get good fast, play a lot of small games
[1:15:12 PM] <[Fx]Droid> 1v1 helps the most
[1:15:17 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Although, I hardly every played 1v1
[1:15:28 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Because I always got really nervouse and was always pessimistic
[1:15:40 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Always had the feeling I was beat after one scout gets through
[1:15:40 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> yea i have been playing a lot of 1v1s recently
[1:15:48 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> yeaaa
[1:15:54 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> i get that aswell
[1:15:55 PM] <[Fx]Droid> I probably wasted a lot of time being a newb by not playing enough 1v1s
[1:16:07 PM] <[Fx]Droid> That goes with Tip #4
[1:16:09 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> playing johan
[1:16:12 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> on avalanch
[1:16:13 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Even if you think it's gg, keep playing
[1:16:27 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Never self D
[1:16:37 PM] <[Fx]Droid> I've had my base raped many times in 1v1
[1:16:46 PM] <[Fx]Droid> But still manage to claim a victory
[1:16:56 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Whether it's by luck, or fast rebuilding or w/e
[1:17:05 PM] <[Fx]Droid> It's always worth seeing a game through to the end
[1:17:16 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Tip #5
[1:17:21 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Try as much as you can not to idle
[1:17:33 PM] <[Fx]Droid> I idle a lot now, but that's simply because I've got used to how things work
[1:17:38 PM] <[Fx]Droid> I can queue up and micro pretty quickly now
[1:17:55 PM] <[Fx]Droid> But for example, if you've made 3 scouts or w/e, and are now watching your com queue up a base
[1:17:58 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Micro the scouts
[1:18:10 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Look for gaps in player's base, try to work the scouts around it
[1:18:22 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Tip #5
[1:18:29 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Make sure you have a solid settings setup
[1:18:33 PM] <[Fx]Droid> This includes keybinds
[1:18:44 PM] <[Fx]Droid> I have binds for mexes, solars, winds, labs and much much more
[1:18:55 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> i only got mex
[1:19:01 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Try to use the keybinds as much as possible, you'll eventually get used to them
[1:19:07 PM] <[Fx]Droid> I only really use mex, wind and solar ones
[1:19:10 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> yeep been told by everyone
[1:19:12 PM] <[Fx]Droid> oh and llt,radar and aa
[1:19:21 PM] <[Fx]Droid> As for settings
[1:19:25 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Make sure you have reasonable FPS
[1:19:41 PM] <[Fx]Droid> I actually have an awesome PC, I can play Crysis on high gfx settings with good FPS
[1:19:47 PM] <[Fx]Droid> But I play Spring on lowest gfx possible
[1:19:51 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Well, near to lowest
[1:20:06 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Simply because in late games, it gives me a still stable frame rate
[1:20:14 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Instead of my PC dying every time somebody spams fighters :D
[1:20:28 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> ahh yea.. my comp is soo balls... and in late games i just diee
[1:20:32 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Hehe
[1:20:41 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> but for all others its fine
[1:20:45 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Also make you have good widgetsd
[1:20:49 PM] <[Fx]Droid> I have a lot of helpful widgets now
[1:20:54 PM] <[Fx]Droid> I've built up over the years
[1:20:56 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> yea carp sorted me out with a good few
[1:21:01 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Good
[1:21:14 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Tip #6
[1:21:37 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Don't be afraid of what you _think_ your opponent is doing
[1:21:47 PM] <[Fx]Droid> If you think "Shit he must have an epic base by now"
[1:21:52 PM] <[Fx]Droid> It could well be the case
[1:22:00 PM] <[Fx]Droid> But often, your head fucks with you
[1:22:10 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Because you're doing so badly, doesn't mean the enemy is doing great
[1:22:17 PM] <[Fx]Droid> One of my favourite tactics, is flash/gator rush
[1:22:29 PM] <[Fx]Droid> It involves little expansion or defence, and just spamming as many flash/gator as possible
[1:22:41 PM] <[Fx]Droid> It usually leaves gaps for scout raids
[1:22:49 PM] <[Fx]Droid> And almost always fails vs lots of llt
[1:23:04 PM] <[Fx]Droid> And most importantly, means I have crappy eco for the most part of the game
[1:23:13 PM] <[Fx]Rioter>
[1:23:23 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> i suppose if u use em wisely
[1:23:24 PM] <[Fx]Droid> So if you manage to kill all the flash, don't think the enemy has epic spam
[1:23:49 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Just because you've got units coming from left right and centre, doesn't always mean the enemy has 3 labs and 10 nanos or w/e :D
[1:23:49 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> yea when i see the first flash on ccr i instantly think.. oh god he has loads
[1:24:03 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Yeh, most people experience the same feelings when they first get into 1v1
[1:24:14 PM] <[Fx]Droid> I still hate 1v1
[1:24:24 PM] <[Fx]Droid> I'm much better than I was at it now
[1:24:27 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> i'm getting more and more used to it
[1:24:29 PM] <[Fx]Droid> But I still don't like it
[1:24:36 PM] <[Fx]Droid> I just get panicy and make little mistakes
[1:24:42 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> yeaa
[1:24:56 PM] <[Fx]Droid> And when you first start off, you can usually get a lot of advice from lots of people
[1:25:06 PM] <[Fx]Droid> You get bombarded with advice if you ask lots of people for it
[1:25:11 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Which isn't always the best thing
[1:25:19 PM] <[Fx]Droid> As you find yourself struggling to remember what people've told you
[1:25:28 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Or you get too focussed on one thing somebody's told you
[1:25:33 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> yea exatcly
[1:25:37 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Or you just get panicy as you think you've got loads to remember
[1:25:59 PM] <[Fx]Droid> So my biggest advice to you is, write down summaries of all the advice people give you
[1:26:03 PM] <[Fx]Droid> And just take it in steps
[1:26:10 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Don't try to do everything in one game
[1:26:25 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> yeaa
[1:26:25 PM] <[Fx]Droid> As I said, the biggest factor is time and experience
[1:26:41 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> yea cool, thanks.
[1:26:44 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Np ^_^
[1:26:49 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> carp was telling me to spend my metal better
[1:26:55 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> so i got better at that
[1:27:02 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Yeh, that's some good advice
[1:27:08 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Although, don't get like Drone
[1:27:20 PM] <[Fx]Droid> He thinks, whenever he has lots of metal, he needs to spam as much stuff as he can asap
[1:27:28 PM] <[Fx]Droid> But if you play for the long term
[1:27:34 PM] <[Fx]Rioter>
[1:27:45 PM] <[Fx]Droid> It can sometimes be usful to build up a little metal over time so you can make an extra lab, t2, defence or w/e
[1:27:55 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> yeaa
[1:27:56 PM] <[Fx]Droid> But yeh, for the most part of 1v1, use the metal you get as quick as you can
[1:28:02 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Especially on maps like comet
[1:28:06 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Where there's loads of mexes
[1:28:12 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> yea!
[1:28:20 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> i only played comet for like 3 months
[1:28:27 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Building up metal usually applies during team games, usually big team games
[1:28:31 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> and only recently have i noticed myself getting better playing diff maps
[1:29:06 PM] <[Fx]Droid> One of my favourite tactics, is to make lossa flash, then whilst those flash are protecting me, make a nice base with adv solar and nanos
[1:29:11 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Without making units at the lab
[1:29:15 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Then when all the nanos and energy is setup
[1:29:21 PM] <[Fx]Droid> All I need to focus on is getting metal
[1:29:30 PM] <[Fx]Droid> And when you have one goal like that, it makes things a lot easier
[1:29:36 PM] <[Fx]Droid> As you can just leave your base for the rest of the game
[1:29:40 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> oh yea.. true bill
[1:29:43 PM] <[Fx]Droid> And focus on microing your army and reclaiming
[1:29:59 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> yeaa.. sounds much nicer
[1:30:08 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Build up a range of tactics
[1:30:12 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Don't try to do the same thing every game
[1:30:28 PM] <[Fx]Droid> In Starcraft, there are tactics known as "cheese", dunno if you've heard of them
[1:30:38 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> noppee
[1:30:44 PM] <[Fx]Droid> It basically means going all in and risking the game tactics
[1:30:47 PM] <[Fx]Droid> For example, in Spring
[1:30:58 PM] <[Fx]Droid> It would be, make no llt or defence at all, no expansion or anything
[1:31:02 PM] <[Fx]Droid> And just spam scouts/flash
[1:31:15 PM] <[Fx]Droid> It means if your flash/scout rush fails
[1:31:22 PM] <[Fx]Droid> You're gonna have a real hard time expanding
[1:31:24 PM] <[Fx]Droid> And building up
[1:31:28 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Compared to the enemy
[1:31:34 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> yeaa
[1:31:42 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Teching is the most popular cheese tactic
[1:31:54 PM] <[Fx]Droid> You risk being bombed, or your enemy killing your allies and then pwning you
[1:32:05 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> i only heard about starcraft like the other week... looks weird
[1:32:06 PM] <[Fx]Droid> But if the risk works out, you have a very good chance of winning
[1:32:11 PM] <[Fx]Droid> So yeh "Cheese" = Risk tactics
[1:32:48 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> yea like on dsd which i rarely play i can do the whole rocko spam fine and push.. but then the guy behind techs up and i fail cus the guy behind me doesn't and os forth
[1:32:50 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Usually a good idea to use them vs higher skilled opponents
[1:33:04 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Where you need something real special to catch them out
[1:33:10 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Yeh
[1:33:14 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> its in scenarios like that when i dunno when to tech..
[1:33:18 PM] <[Fx]Droid> I used to be a real team worker
[1:33:27 PM] <[Fx]Droid> But these days, I try not to depend on my team at all
[1:33:36 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Just hope that south can hold whilst I push north
[1:33:44 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> yea
[1:33:45 PM] <[Fx]Droid> But I never depend upon a back player helping me out
[1:34:00 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Anyway
[1:34:15 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Keep playing, I've given lots of advice, it will be hard to take it all in straight away
[1:34:25 PM] <[Fx]Droid> Good luck ^_^
[1:34:29 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> yea yea.. cheers :D
[1:34:38 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> i'll keep reading it
[1:34:56 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> when im stuck xD
[1:35:05 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> ty
[1:35:08 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> ttylater
[1:35:12 PM] <[Fx]Droid> k

tl;dr: Cheese makes you healthy.

Posted: **01 Dec 2010, 04:57**

In my opinion, the "natural skill" comment under Point #2 is absolute bollocks. Yeah, yeah, some players pop into Spring and seem to already know everything, but that's because they played OTA or Supcom or Starcraft or something and are carrying over skills.

[1:32:05 PM] <[Fx]Rioter> i only heard about starcraft like the other week... looks weird

WHAT.

Posted: **01 Dec 2010, 08:49**

Kron wrote:In my opinion, the "natural skill" comment under Point #2 is absolute bollocks. Yeah, yeah, some players pop into Spring and seem to already know everything, but that's because they played OTA or Supcom or Starcraft or something and are carrying over skills.

Possibly, but that's not always the case. There have been a lot of players who can compete with the pros at top level when they're only rank 6. Two names that spring to my mind are Anubis and Saleen, both of whom I think got recruited to PinK for their proness when they were only rank 6. I got beat by Anubis in a 1v1 when I just got my Veteran rank when he first started playing.

Posted: **01 Dec 2010, 10:47**

Saleen wasn't new... :D

And what's "only" rank 6? Rank 6 means youve got a ton of experience already. I remember taking off some games from Shox, Triton, Accele... at rank 5 without prior MP rts experience. /brag
Ofc it matters that you play with mind set on improving, instead of just dicking around. Not just some obscure talent or amount of play.

Posted: **01 Dec 2010, 11:14**

Sorry, meant rank 5, the silver star thingy. Wasn't too sure about Saleen, I just knew I'd never seen him before and he had a low rank and everybody seemed to say he was newer to Spring than all the people he played in 1v1.

Regardless, I still feel there are the rare players out there that have natural talent for RTS games such as BA, in the same way there's a lot of veteran ranked players out there who've played BA for years and still haven't reached the skill level of a typical rank 6.

Posted: **01 Dec 2010, 13:41**

Can't you get veterancy by just spectating games or something?

Anyway, I still call bollocks on 'natural talent' in a strategy game. I do believe that practice and/or research is a necessary condition for expertise and extreme competence (ignoring extreme outliers), but not a sufficient condition.

This means you can get really stupid 'veterans' who just don't get it, but you don't get really advanced newbies.

[brag]I haven't played a single game of ZK (or any TA mod), but I was still more than experienced enough to observe matches between two non-expert players and tell them what they were doing wrong.[/brag]

They had more in-game experience than me (knowing more about the details like unit characteristics, UI, etc.) but I was still more experienced with strategy games in general and could tell that both weren't scouting and one was turtling (except you folks call that 'porcing' or something).

It's possible I could've beaten them in fair fights. Even though I haven't played the game at all! But it's not like I have natural talent, I just exploit synergy between RTSs to import experience from similar games.

Posted: **01 Dec 2010, 14:26**

By natural talent I mean natural ability. Not natural knowledge of what everything does and how much it costs etc. I'm talking about people whose mindsets are already at ease with the framework of BA and how it works.

Posted: **01 Dec 2010, 22:48**

Two names that spring to my mind are Anubis and Saleen, both of whom I think got recruited to PinK for their proness when they were only rank 6

so u didnt know they were old players ? lawl

Spring RTS Engine

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