Spring RTS Engine

Posted: **27 Mar 2010, 22:33**

Can we have ropephysicks, so i can have lampionchains wrap around the legs of giant robots?

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No, this time a serious request. Could we have a particle generator, that is noobfriendly to use? Not something you have to code in LUA, just a colourmap you have to specify a Texture with a Alpha for even people like me could use.

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Thx for your attention

Posted: **27 Mar 2010, 22:36**

but Lua is fun

Posted: **27 Mar 2010, 22:41**

But MS-paint is fun everybody can have without big tutorial.

Posted: **28 Mar 2010, 22:46**

how would this transform into a particle system?

Posted: **28 Mar 2010, 22:47**

knorke wrote:

how would this transform into a particle system?

More importantly, why is the lead sectioned to the red part o.O

Posted: **29 Mar 2010, 12:33**

every colour on the splatmap refers to one sort of particle generated there- from a alpha&a jpg/tga/whatsoevar, the amount of particles is based upon how much area is covered by a splatmap, light and dark how long the particle lives. A W- as the first letter of the particle alpha stands for affected by the wind. A G as second letter stands for affected by grafity, a Number following, how high above the heightmap the particle is created.

Example:
WG50_LavaandAshes.tga
Is a windaffected, grafitybound TGA Particle generated 50 Units above the coloured ground. Every Particle dies once it touches ground, not gravitybound particles die after they moved over a diffrent particletype for to long or are driven into a to steep mountain by the wind.

Its not that easy as a LUA-Script, but keep in mind, this is something every idiot can handle, while LUA-Scripted Particlesystems are as rare as real volcanos in Spring. I want something that is Idiotsafe to use, adds just three or four smd-tags (TotalNumberofParticles)

I know there is the usual devdozen, who turns away, headshakin, murmurin "Madman, youra Madman, this is madness." But keep in mind i holded and folded my usual self away in this thread- i could have gone the "OMG-lets make a dynamic splatmap, that can recreate savannahfires"Picassoway, but i didnt. Please reward that with attention to a serious topic.

Posted: **30 Mar 2010, 10:25**

should this "particlemap" be parts of maps? like heightmap, texturemap, featuremap? and then the mapconv thing packs it into the mapfile?

or for units effects?
and why is the images perspective stretched?

Every Particle dies once it touches ground, not gravitybound particles die after they moved over a diffrent particletype for to long or are driven into a to steep mountain by the wind.

what is the difference between mountain and ground in spring?

maybe give an example how ie a fire trail for a missle would look like or something.

Also, file names that contain values...doesnt sound so good to me.
And how many colors are there anyway? Like if a mod has some dozen units and each needs a particlesystem for firing animation...you run out of colors? (cant use shades as shades are supposed to represent livetime)

Wouldnt a ingame particle editor be more usefull? Like some sliders with lua and whatnot and then it outputs the needed files or something..

Sorry but this does not appear very thought through to me, starting with the thread name

Posted: **30 Mar 2010, 15:28**

knorke wrote:should this "particlemap" be parts of maps? like heightmap, texturemap, featuremap? and then the mapconv thing packs it into the mapfile?

Yes, seperated from Unit effects. 4 diffrent types ofParticles per map (nobody needs moar i guess as a mapper, also the map particles should not have priority from weapon-particles)

knorke wrote: and why is the images perspective stretched?

To create a (very bad) 3d effect..

knorke wrote: What is the difference between mountain and ground in spring?

A mountain is a continued rising of the (antigravity)particle to not touch ground that is 2x bigger as its travelling speed by wind. E.g. Particle firefly moves from current position (x/y)to position target position x+5y+1 and is expected to rise a cliff of 20 heightunits, on this track.
+5+1=6 ==> 6x2 =12 -> 12 < 20, so no fireflys going over mount everrest, sorry, reallyism i guess.

knorke wrote: maybe give an example how ie a fire trail for a missle would look like or something.

Sorry, i didnt ment this particlesystem to be used for missiles, but if you insist on this gedankenspiel, well, lets imagine a lasered down missile crashes into the ground with a dynamic particlesplatmap. First there is one pixel created which is fire&smoke, the next thing i know is that the whole are typemapped as grassland was blazing aflame, the splatmap becoming something like a coloured sandbox- should i stop, i think i get reddickulous here :)

knorke wrote: Also, file names that contain values...doesnt sound so good to me.

Well, yes, some things that sound very good for a artist, who can sneak around the scripteditor for another decade, sound rather ugly for programmers i guess, who dont understand why somebody shys away from something that simpel, like the devil from holy water.

knorke wrote: And how many colors are there anyway?

4 red blue green yellow (Light and dark represent how long the generated particle lives)

knorke wrote: Like if a mod has some dozen units and each needs a particlesystem for firing animation...you run out of colors? (cant use shades as shades are supposed to represent livetime)

Dont know why we mappers should always get stuffed in the same beds as the modders, remember those guys are into number crunchin, programmin, all that funny things that some mappers (i include myself) try to avoid. DO NOT THINK JUST BECAUSE I BUG MYSELF THROUGH YOUR CURSED SMDS EVERYTIME I CREATE MY MAP, I WILL ONE DAY LUUUVE ASSEMBLER AS MUCH AS YOU DO. I WONT, I WONT, I WONT.

knorke wrote: Wouldnt a ingame particle editor be more usefull? Like some sliders with lua and whatnot and then it outputs the needed files or something..

For moders moar usefull? YES. For mappers moar usefull... i doubt that. Sure some tools will be requested immidiatly to finetune the particlesplatmap ingame, but only after it exists.

knorke wrote: Sorry but this does not appear very thought through to me, starting with the thread name

Well, it is not a thought trough thing, it is a wild hearts desire for something simple that doesent stand in my brushes way with walls of code. Thx again for your reply and attention,,,,,,

,,,
,,
,
forget about it.

Posted: **30 Mar 2010, 16:44**

oh my god best thread ever.

Posted: **30 Mar 2010, 17:05**

Well, I wrote a particle system. It's about as easy to use as CEGs are, once you understand how it operates, and it can do a lot of things you don't want to do with CEG. And you want it to be in Lua, so that it's easy to change stuff.

If you just want particles, you can call any valid CEG via Lua with one line- Spring.SpawnCEG()... see here for documentation.

CEG and P.O.P.S. are both designed to be about as simple as particle systems can get, without a realtime editing suite. You can't make them much simpler, or they quit being general-purpose enough to be all that useful. Is there something in particular you want to see a simple, plug-in-a-small-number-of-variables solution for?

Posted: **30 Mar 2010, 17:57**

*backs up slowly*

Posted: **30 Mar 2010, 18:03**

this is what i planned it for, and it would have been easily possible with a splattypemap-based particlesystem. but then i got linked

whatiplanned.jpg: (115.55 KiB) Downloaded 3 times

oh, here we are a again, walking full circle, and because its fun to run, lets do it another round, stubborn and stupid, like i am.
Of curse i can ask the big boys (and actually i did by postin this thread), i by 2015 will be bribed with tutorials into finding it out by myself, because its me and i have nothing else besides a maniac book to waste my sparetime upon - but what if, just imagine, what if i could do that all by myself, by using photoshop and max, and nearly nothing else.

No spoiled brat disturbing your circles, askin for sweets to rain from the sky, no endles pming of people who need to be beaten up with the tutorial club, just something so easy to use, that even i could do it. Is that so mean to wish for, just think of all the busy silence you could enjoy by now.

(I m not responsible for the bugs&complains-section and its over9000 >>hang Picasso who slows my spring-threads)

Knorke i see you trying to escape this enthusispasm. Stay a while and listen...

Posted: **30 Mar 2010, 19:24**

OK, let's back up a minute.

1. An image isn't a particle system. A particle system is basically some math that we do, cyclically, in order to simulate a real-world event.

2. What I'm getting from your word "splat" is that you're hoping for some map-based particle systems, i.e., something you can draw onto an image that matches the map, and it will do something.

3. It's quite possible to develop some code that will put a particle system of <insert type here> onto a map at coordinates X,Y, if color RGB == some number in some bitmap. That part is doable.

However, you're really forgetting something here- while that part is fairly trivial (I could bang out that code pretty fast), the real work, and the real difficulty, is developing the particle systems that do whatever it is that you want.

So... you've got a thread about another map you're working on, where it looks like you need cyclic "lights" generated by "lanterns".

This is an absolutely trivial thing to code up as a World Builder project, although if you want full realtime lighting of the surrounding geometry and not just a glow on the ground, that's a little harder. I have an example of that exact thing in P.U.R.E., see the streetlight code. It doesn't do realtime lighting of surrounding geometry, but that's not a major issue, so long as the light sources aren't large and you don't have a ton of these light sources (like, over 100, 10-30 is fine).

It uses Units, of course, because I don't like having things like particle systems tied to things I can't edit intuitively and easily in realtime with World Builder. You can, after all, build Units that load a continuous particle event or a cyclic CEG and then destroy themselves, for example, it's all very easy.

Posted: **30 Mar 2010, 19:33**

ohhh i get it, you want leaves and butterflies flying around the map <3

i could see this being pretty cool if you did something like "50 small leaves scattering around the map and never going uphill" and "25 butterflies fluttering around and never going above a certain height level"

and the color coded picture decides where the particles start (and maybe the limits of where they can travel)

good thing i ordered that "learn picassoese at home on audiobook" series

Posted: **30 Mar 2010, 19:34**

PicassoCT wrote:nobody needs moar

Has the shorty history of computers not taught you anything?

Posted: **30 Mar 2010, 22:18**

Well it teached me to have a sock filled with money ready, to restart by buying a new pc & software if everything else fails. I learned to change and expand my stock of sock.

And Kaiser J got the Missionobjective, a winner is you.

The Lanterns are not important, forget about them, what i want is a way to simply generate particles with a (transparency)picture, who float around as described above.

@ARGH: Point 3. would be awesome.

Argh wrote: 2. What I'm getting from your word "splat" is that you're hoping for some map-based particle systems, i.e., something you can draw onto an image that matches the map, and it will do something.

YEESS.

Argh wrote: 3. It's quite possible to develop some code that will put a particle system of <insert type here> onto a map at coordinates X,Y, if color RGB == some number in some bitmap. That part is doable.

>--EEEEEEESSS, IM MAKING PROGRESS. I LOVE THOSE WORDS, the sound of THAT PART IS DOABLE. SO IT IS A EXISTING TASK and it can be done.

Argh wrote: However, beeing a programmer i dont understand why somebody avoids easy work, and i have some serious doubts that you are not just lazy and i find your lack of organized thinking very disturbing.

So... i will change topic, to something already existing like rubber batons, good old rubber truncheon we used to beat insane shit out of people babbling nonsens on the intertubes.

I will bake that little lights into my map and will live happily ever after, thank you for worrying though :)

Argh wrote: It uses Units, of course, because I don't like having things like particle systems tied to things I can't edit intuitively and easily in realtime with World Builder. You can, after all, build Units that load a continuous particle event or a cyclic CEG and then destroy themselves, for example, it's all very cheeeasy.

Oh, yeah it┬┤s allways easy, was the same thing with smds, first they didnt work for weeks, then for days finally- im down to only two hours of errormaking and fixing. Very suspicious of mankind not to adapt to the cheese.

Srsly i want this, after seeing that Behe can make a detailtexturesplatmap, i want one for particles, that is like his, just this simple. Call me a stubborn, toolstuck, tutorial hatin, idiot. Fine, i live with it, but why not flick the magic c#-wand and see what happens?
If it is that easy, why avoid it?

Argh wrote: I can't edit intuitively..

Code is intuitively in your world i guess. Pictures are in mine.
Take a feature, paint every Roof red, everything else green, Render from TA-Perspective above, select pixels who are red, break it down into percentages, assign that amount of space in the texture for the roof. It is after all what players will see most of the time.

Argh wrote: I can't edit intuitively

I should stop quoting out of context.

Argh wrote: I can't edit intuitively

One moar time just for the halibut!

Ifeelkindasorryfortheguywhohastoshoopinthewindowlights.jpg: (364.87 KiB) Downloaded 3 times

Just imagine that with the particles!

Posted: **01 Apr 2010, 03:03**

Code is intuitively in your world i guess. Pictures are in mine.

I guess you missed my video about using World Builder. No coding required.

Posted: **01 Apr 2010, 04:11**

This is a great particle system!

Put to a good use!

Posted: **01 Apr 2010, 23:51**

Argh wrote:
Code is intuitively in your world i guess. Pictures are in mine.
I guess you missed my video about using World Builder. No coding required.

I followed your first link and it had code. Why should i believe in your second link to lead to a vid? Listen ARGH i know how tricky it can be to finetune particlegenerators, they exist in max too - although for rendering purposes only. And i do not doubt that worldbuilder is a great tool - for placing features. But there is a reason, why all the advancedtech mappers have mods of there own, they learned scripting and if only to get a unit to work correct ingame. I however do not- want- that- this is getting tiresome, lets forget about it...

Jesus, and i thought myself to be stubborn. Good reasons why the kicked programmers out of every GUI-Devteam i know of ages ago. No, we dont move were the people are, to the tools they are at home with, after all they come to our c#church, to whoreship us, the mighty techpriests, they want spiritworldstuff from us, so they shall do the first move. Bow to the mighty geek, unbelievers of the past.
And then always that surprise, when by accident something easy to use escapes before "the bug" can be fixxed, and suddenly there are this millions of morons, who use it. And do stuff with it. No scripting stuff, no programming stuff, therefore it cant be great, but they are very noisy, so what once slipped cant be reconquistaed, no matter how hard you try by sm3, by difficult methods to keep the noobs out, they return like rats, demanding, eating on your nerves, no matter how fast you drop copy&pasta tutoriallinks on those mules.

No, i will be damned, i will post in this thread until somebody promises to do something. Mean kid on the playground? And what are you gonna do, running home, whining to one of the Moms (Mods) "Mumy, Mumy- that bad Picasso hit me with the toyshovell!" or just cure the bruises all by yourself and thank me later, when that experience made you a doctor, having me as first patient?

You see, even i can do it in max - why cant i do it in spring? And learn LUA is no answer, that is a gag. Your abilitys do NOT set standards, no matter how big your ego is. GET OVER IT. And by limiting the creatorsbase, you limit the USER-base, another thing to face.

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I am tired, it was a very long day, good night.

Posted: **02 Apr 2010, 00:43**

You see, even i can do it in max - why cant i do it in spring?

Because in max, somebody else, a programmer (or most likely, a small team) built you a complete UI for developing these things without having to do much more than move a few sliders around. Behind that "simple" process is a vast amount of code.

And it's even more complicated in Spring. While we could build tools for previewing CEGs, for example... you'd still face the barrier of taking it from an effect to working, in-game code... and that takes you right into COB and Lua.

We don't have easy solutions for these things. It'd be a lot easier to build an in-game IK animation suite than to build a nub-proof particle FX generation system that would miraculously allow you to connect it with Units and other code, which is all necessary if you want to do anything fancy.

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