Spring RTS Engine

Units-as-features can be placed with Mission Editor.

Oh, and World Builder has been able to place Features as well as Units for ages. I just don't bother putting Features into World Builder, because there aren't any speed advantages and they can't do anything interesting.

Argh wrote:Units-as-features can be placed with Mission Editor.

Oh, and World Builder has been able to place Features as well as Units for ages. I just don't bother putting Features into World Builder, because there aren't any speed advantages and they can't do anything interesting.

they use less memory and get rendered a bit faster, and in the next spring release they also save a lot cpu usage

If that optimization's in Spring, I'll be happy to test it and see what the real-world difference is.

But anyhow, that's irrelevant. My point was that, in terms of editing environments, there are options for placing Features already. If you want to use Mission Editor instead of World Builder, simply create dummy Units that immediately turn into the relevant Features via Lua. It's a little clumsy and involves some extra work, but it should work just fine.

Argh, I am fucking sick of you shoving worldbuilder on everyone take your shit and walk. I have told you countless times that I don't want your damn perversion of what I suggested. Don't use the thread on my GAME to try and push your SHIT.

GET THE FUCK OUT OF MY THREAD!

I DO NOT WANT WORLDFAILURE!

THIS IS A THREAD ABOUT GUNDAM NOT A FUCKING THREAD ABOUT YOUR SHIT!

Problem Smoth?

What you need is the power of your foot in his ass.

Tell me about it noraus, the guy keeps shoving world builder in everyone's face this is a thread about gundam but because I wrote my own feature placer he wants to derail the fucking thing.


I am going to put it in plain text.

THIS ISN'T THE ARGH SHOW IN FACT THIS IS THE GUNDAM THREAD WHERE GUNDAM IS DISCUSSED!

in fact, I addressed this exact viewpoint in the mapping forum in the urban maps thread, argh blatantly ignored that.

I am pleading with moderation to please split his bullshit out my thread so it can be about GUNDAM again and not HIS EGO vs other people wanting something different!

jK wrote:

Argh wrote:Units-as-features can be placed with Mission Editor.

Oh, and World Builder has been able to place Features as well as Units for ages. I just don't bother putting Features into World Builder, because there aren't any speed advantages and they can't do anything interesting.

they use less memory and get rendered a bit faster, and in the next spring release they also save a lot cpu usage

For the record: I did try less than two monthes ago, and, shockingly, live units were sensibly faster than features.

No offense, but why isn't Smoth being banned for this behavior?

I made a non-rude, pertinent suggestion, and according to our rules, he's not allowed to curse at me or to tell me to GTFO of his thread. I am sick of this blatant double-standard here, where somebody with Moderator rights acted to split this "derail" that was on topic and quite polite.

Either enforce the rules, or change them to something you will enforce.



Smoth, you should probably actually try using the available tools, since you apparently lack the capability of making your own.

Download World Builder, and learn to use it. It is a simple, powerful tool, with documentation on its use, and if you have serious complaints about how it functions, as opposed to the scale I picked for the content, I'll be happy to hear about them, and address them if they're serious obstacles towards promoting its use as a final map / gameplay editing environment. It and Mission Editor go together fairly well- my only beef atm is that Mission Editor won't read and execute World Builder scripts, so working with it and World Builder requires a certain amount of patience.

The problem I see here is that you bitch and moan about me "shoving it down your throat", but provide no evidence as to why it's not a useful tool... when I have made almost 20 maps with it in a commercial product, and have heard no complaints about its stability, etc. So, naturally I'm rather perplexed. I use it, and it takes me less than an hour to populate huge maps with hundreds of actors that can do things Features can't do... and all I hear, when I promote its use, is whining and bitching.

The World Builder Editor module is quite clearly meant as a SDK- integration of the product with your games is both easy and fast, assuming that you know what you're doing.

In short... if there's something awful about its design, that's something I'd be more than willing to talk about. It's UI isn't the greatest, but it's been sufficient for my needs, and since I'm still adding content to it very rapidly, it's been a low priority to improve it.

But I developed it for everybody, and I'm quite shocked that it isn't seeing wider use yet.

And if people have issues with the content... feel free to fork it, or whatever you want, it's Open Source. I don't mind if Smoth re-scales everything and tells everybody that his fork is the "correct" one. I'm just not willing to use his scale, nor willing to waste my time on something that has no real benefit for me. But "fixing" it would take somebody less than a day. It's not that hard- just rescale some hitboxes, the S3Os, and other than the buildings, the death animations aren't scale-dependent.

But it already works just fine with Features, I promise. It treats them like Buildings, and obeys facing requirements, etc., strictly, the last time I tested it. If that's buggy, just let me know.

Instead of wasting time pursuing a map-centered approach, please start getting into the 21st century and use code to direct what objects are present in your gameworld.

Moreover, my statement about how to get the Mission Editor to behave properly is, once again, meant in a helpful and informative way. It's clunky, but it's a workaround that will do what I proposed.

In short, your behavior is inappropriate and deserves censure. You do not have the right to curse at me, for posting in your threads, nor to tell me I cannot post, especially as you have repeatedly refused to grant me that wish when I have asked you to leave, for making far less useful or intelligent comments.

Argh wrote:No offense, but why isn't Smoth being banned for this behavior?

Indeed, an excellent example of an attempt to be inoffensive. Maybe you should be banned (and drawn and quartered)...but no offense!

Smoth, you should probably actually try using the available tools, since you apparently lack the capability of making your own.

Another excellent diplomacy roll. Oh, and he did.

Instead of wasting time pursuing a map-centered approach, please start getting into the 21st century and use code to direct what objects are present in your gameworld.

So you can happily dismiss the work smoth does as obsolescent oh but when smoth insults your work it's obviously a GIANT DOUBLE STANDARD IN MODERATION.

1. I see that Smoth engaged in a number of "felony offenses" here. It was treated like a derail, when it clearly wasn't one. So, yeah, I'm calling it. If you don't like it, tough.

2. If he supposedly did, he'd have something intelligent to say about why he doesn't want to use it, or actual suggestions about how to improve it for practical use.

Given that all I've gotten from him is vague whining, aside from giant baaaaw about the scale I picked, my conclusion is that he has not actually used it in any serious sense.

Compare my notes about Mission Builder- bugs, feature requests, code shared back- with his vagueness and rudeness, and it makes a fairly clear contrast, to be perfectly honest.

3. I asked him, politely, to not post in my threads, because he has never said anything that I would consider friendly or helpful, other than his offer of the cubemaps for mapping purposes, which in the end I didn't end up using anyhow.

I have never, ever asked a moderator to split his comments, nor have I asked for them to be censored... I've just asked him to stop posting in my development threads, and now it's a moot point, as I no longer maintain any here.

He refused to honor that request, and by our rules here, I had no power to address that, so I ended up just not posting further progress updates on my various projects here, because it's the most meaningful protest I could think of.

And here I'm posting something useful- two different solutions to what appears to be a simple technical problem. That doesn't give him the right to curse me out. If we count the number of times Smoth has cursed me out here, in public, vs. the number of times I've cursed back, we'll see that when it comes to this sort of behavior, it's mainly one-sided.

So... what double standard are we talking about, exactly? I obey our rules, even though I dislike them, and think they should be altered. And I merely expect everybody else to obey the same rules.

In short... this kind of thing is not OK, and reflects very poorly on the project, when people behave like this. Smoth wanted a fight, obviously. I guess we haven't had a flamewar for long enough, or whatever is wrong with his personality has slipped into Tourets mode again. I don't really care. There's no excuse for this, though- a polite, "hey Argh, I'd use World Builder but it doesn't do XYZ" would have been productive and useful, but this is neither useful nor healthy, and should not be normal behavior here.

When people curse at each other, they're just dragging the whole tone of things down, man. It's one of the things Moderators should be doing something about. I don't mind so much, if people want to have a polite argument about how to get XYZ done, or disagree with what I'm saying...

Hell, I'm Argh, I have 15 cool ideas and I'm seriously wrong about something 5 times before lunch every day, it's just part of being me. I don't really mind, when people say, "hey, that's wrong, this is right"- at least then I'm educated and a problem is solved. But when people just yell obscenities, they're not serving anybody's interests here.

I mean... what good did that behavior do? Did it solve Smoth's problems? No. Did it help me in some way? No. Did it help some newbie understand the engine better? No. Did it improve the quality of communication here? No. Instead, it makes us look bad and serves nobody's interests.

Are you actually planning on addressing what I said or just spouting more of the same?

ahaha, oh wow. You are a funny one.

Nothing i can post, or think of posting can compete with the shear brilliance that were peet's posts. buuuut.....

Smoth has already announced his stance on world builder and his project in another thread, but you still feel the need to spew your crap in his thread. Why is it? perhaps you need the ego boost of having the developer of a big spring game use your tool, or perhaps you are butthurt that nobody has used it, and feel the need to polute another game developer's thread to defend it.

Smoth made it clear what he was doing and why, but you persisted to drag it on, and into _HIS_ thread of all places, he has the right to bite your head off, and telling you to get out of his thread. Perhaps he didnt do it the most civil way possible, but hell, i doubt anyone could deal with you. while being civil.

I am sure smoth does not need your nonsense, nor does the moderation team. This issue is not mainly one sided. You have antagonized him, purposely or not. You are just as guilty.

<shrugs> I think I answered Peet quite adequately, actually, let's review the TL:DNR way:

1. Yeah, I'm saying that we have a problem here.

2. I have seen no real evidence that Smoth has any clue as to how to use World Builder, or has actually integrated it into GRTS, which takes maybe an hour, if you know what you're doing.

Seriously. Show me some evidence that Smoth actually knows how to use World Builder, or has done any serious work with it. So far as I know... I am the only person who's ever gotten it working with multiple mods (NanoBlobs, even a private build of Merc Squad).

That's the thing that convinces me that people aren't actually getting to that point, frankly. My guess is that Smoth maybe, maybe used an early build once, and hasn't kept up with it over the last six months. Like any tool in constant development, a lot happens over that timeframe. Software-wise, it's pretty much the same tool, but content-wise... there's a lot more stuff, and that's a continuing goal (all the Space Chickens, the Wolfen, and other ModelBase stuff will end up there eventually, so that people can make entire games with Open Source content).

I've never seen a screenshot of a custom map for another mod using it, and nobody's given me any serious wish-list requests. It's like people are getting stuck somewhere really basic, and conclude that the tool sucks, when it's more that they aren't following directions, or don't know how to integrate a SDK package with their own work.

3. I am not a hypocrite. Me asking Smoth to not post, and him continuing to post, without Moderator intervention, is all on the public record here, as are the reasons why.

In this case, if he'd behaved rationally, I'd have responded in kind. I wasn't looking for a fight here. I'm offended that he felt that his behavior was appropriate, when what I was saying was well-meant.



At any rate, that's all I have to say about this. Smoth, man... seriously now, if you want something in World Builder that's not tied up with the scale stuff, which I am not willing to do... just ask... this drama wasn't necessary, and just makes us look bad.

I am just sitting back, thinking something argh said is ironic. Something like: 'posting this in your thread makes your project look bad'.

All these flames, are in a topic called world builder now,

Well since you have completely ignored the actuality of my first point and instead responded to/reiterated upon your own quote, I will restate my own position in clearer terms, without quoting you so you won't get all starry eyed as you read your own text.

Sure, I agree, smoth was out of line. However, I do believe your own behaviour in this matter, while much subtler and less obviously offensive, is every bit as deplorable....making your own heroic cries for change on the moderation end almost amusing.

And yes, I do fully realize that my own conduct as of this post is much the same...however I am not particularly worried about my continued standing at this location.

Indeed it may be appropriate for moderative action against smoth's recent posts - particularly as I am sure smoth is well aware of the magnitude and nature of his own behaviour. You, however, are not. It is evident just how innocent you hold yourself to be throughout all of this. I believe that is much a much more dangerous train of thought and behaviour than smoth's blatant rage and flames.

Sure, I agree, smoth was out of line. However, I do believe your own behaviour in this matter, while much subtler and less obviously offensive, is every bit as deplorable....making your own heroic cries for change on the moderation end almost amusing.

Indeed it may be appropriate for moderative action against smoth's recent posts - particularly as I am sure smoth is well aware of the magnitude and nature of his own behaviour. You, however, are not. It is evident just how innocent you hold yourself to be throughout all of this. I believe that is much a much more dangerous train of thought and behaviour than smoth's blatant rage and flames.

Let me just get this straight, because your logic's fantastic.

Somebody with Moderator rank pulls this stunt... leaves these posts un-edited for me to find and get annoyed... as well as making the whole Project look bad.

They don't leave their name, so... per policy, I don't know who to complain to via PM.

Me pointing this out is a dire mistake, eh?

So... wait. I know that at least three people with Moderator rights have been here tonight, read this stuff, and not fixed it, either. If this keeps up, tomorrow this whole mess will be there for everybody. In fact, in Europe, it's already morning, so it's already getting read by early readers.

Let me put it another way: if said Moderator had done something smart, like removing Smoth's swearing... I probably would have just shaken my head at it all, and moved on.

I really, seriously was not looking for a fight, and I hadn't even read whatever Smoth said elsewhere, because I wasn't on the Web much this last week.

Anyhow... for you non-native English readers who are probably wondering what is going on... Smoth's posts had some "fighting words" in it... it wasn't just cursing, it's also the phrasing, and it's not stuff you say in America to another man unless you want to have a fist-fight.

Instead, they pretty deliberately created this mess, and left no name for me to deal with it in private, and I have no super-user or Moderator rights, so I can't do a lookup and query the record.

So... in such a case, I should do... what?

If we're going to have a procedural argument, that's cool, what's policy on this? Bug Tobi? PM Swift, who will not actually check his inbox for over a week sometimes?

I mean... no offense, people... but I am being pretty hardcore about this because it needs to stop happening.

I don't mind professional disagreements, but this whole cursing thing, where people get fairly offensive and in each other's faces, over really stupid stuff... is just not a good policy.

I think it's pretty simple - stay out of each others' threads and don't reply to each others' posts.

As per complaining - you can field it to me, or use the magical "forum moderators" group.
Swear words are nothing special... just normal words by which some people choose to be offended.

Official policy: you both step out of line, and you should both have maturity levels sufficient to ignore the others' words.

He curses a bit, and you need to work on conciseness and actually replying to people's words other than your own.

You're all fags. Seriously.

Argh, you're a condascending fuck.

Smoth, you use any excuse to have a gay nerdrage on Argh at any moment of any day.

Argh, the reason nobody takes anything you do seriously, whether or not you actually do something well, is because of your ill-placed smugness about it. Nobody (I bet Smoth would) could count the number of times you've tried to push your "superiority" on every and any topic (even topics you obviously know nothing about), vaguely hidden under some gesture of "good will" or "community service". The numerous threads you've started in which you basically storm around saying "Well, I have no idea how to do this, but obviously neither do you, so I'm going to find out and show you all how to do it properly", that whole "Omfg I can texture better and faster than ANYONE" kick you were on awhile ago, the whole "Holy shit World Builder is the best thing to happen to Spring, even better than Spring itself", and the coup d'grace, "I'm going to go commercial with PURE. But don't worry, I'll be sure to remember you little guys who weren't good enough to make it as far as I have."

You're an arrogant dipshit with a messiah complex. Now, I like some of the stuff you do. I really like the modelling and texture work in PURE and I admire what you've been able to do almost single-handedly. But it's a shame that you have such a ridiculously horrible reputation, because I'm sure a lot of people would be much more willing to take you seriously if you weren't such an arrogant dipshit.

What you both need to do is go on Teamspeak and have a verbal sparring match. I think most people would fucking pay to see that. With smoth's nerdraging and your passive aggressive belligerence, I think much fun would be had.

I am not going to comment on the argh vs smoth issue itself, as that would be taking sides, and i do not wish to do that.

Smoth does not make all his work public, unless we make an effort to track all his online movements or he tells us we can make no assumptions about what he has or hasnt done.

Also just because a superior tool is there doesnt mean people will use it. Not that Im commenting on any tools here.

Argh, you have yet to post even a single screenshot of world builder or explained nice and clearly how it works and where to find this. Sure you may have put a description in a forum post long forgotten and lost under all the new threads and replies. You may have shown screenshots of worldbuilders results, but not world builder itself. Its obscured in a shroud of mystery as this strange archive that gets bundled with pure releases/demos that seems able to magicly generate these pretty screenshots, but nobody knows how, or even what the tool itself looks like.

Whatsmore your licence debacle has lead to a stance in the communtiy from many that they would rather re-engineer than re-use, because its safer than tempting fate by depending on you.

If people dont use your tool, then thats their loss, people will do what they like, sure you can persuade them, but you dont have that time. Nor do you have the time to spend in threads like these. Your getting nowhere. These people have opinions about you that won't be changed in a forum thread.