Spring RTS Engine

Hello everybody.

First off, I would like to thank all the developers and artists for putting in time on the Spring project and game mods. This is an excellent game platform and I would really like to see it grow and be used widely. I've quite enjoyed time spent with the various games so far and I have not doubt about the potential of Spring.

Now, a little about myself. I'm a professional game developer working in the U.S. I've worn most of the development hats outside of engineering over about 13 years (QA, Production Artist, Senior / Lead Designer / Producer). I'm throwing this out so that I can make the following points from the position of credibility despite being new to the board.

Now, the criticisms...

1) Spring is just too damn hard to run and find mods for. Each product must be looked at holistically - it doesn't do any good to have great game play if the user can't figure out how to get the game started. I'm currently using Spring on two computers and have ended up with two versions of the TASclient (one as a single player button and the other one doesn't). It's very likely that you're losing 4/5 players after the install of Spring, before they have a chance to really get into the game. From what I've seen, the whole user experience should be mapped out and redesigned for ease of use.

2) Spring needs a core, flagship game that is unique and associated with the full capabilities of Spring. Updating TA forever, ripping off Star Wars and various other IPs is not the way to go in the long run. From what I've seen so far, Spring is too good to stay in that ghetto space. Also, an unique IP will give the artists and developers a chance to shine and show their full creativity. Here are some suggestions I have:
a) A Steampunk RTS - Steampunk is hot and gamers have been familiar with it for years. The art style and gameplay would shine in Spring. Even better, there are no real competitors.
b) An anime based RTS that is done in cell shaded style and brings brings the depth and future vision associated with anime (not just big robots, but a vision of a particular setting and conflict). Again, this lends itself to heavy stylization.
c) A realistic Mars colonization / conflict game where the resource collection is based on what it takes to really build a civilization on Mars and potential human conflicts. Feel free to call it "Mars Nation" (A.I. driven robots declaring indepedence on Mars and trying to keep humans off planet? Corporate factions fighting over exploitation rights?)
d) An RTS based on inter-dimensional warfare. Why not throw everything into the mix and allow vampires to fight robots to fight facists to fight elves. While a little crazy in theme, this approach has potential to be incredibly fun, especially if done tongue-in-cheek (what's better than laughing at what you're seeing on screen while you annihilate your opponent?

3) The Spring website looks nice, but needs more work in tying together all the pieces of Spring into a nice, easy to get, easy to update package. It often seemed like I have been going in circles trying to find the right mod or update to download. Just like a game, the website needs to be very direct and put everything you want to get within a couple of clicks. Ideally, Spring itself would be the gateway for getting content, but I don't think the TASclient does this effectively.

Thank you for reading my post.
- nXain

I agree with pretty much everything you have said here.

There was a steampunk mod created that never really caught on. Nanoblobs.

Here is pretty much the future of spring mods if the creator is willing to put in this amount of work. Check out PURE: http://spring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewtop ... 14&t=16136 (made by the same guy who made nanoblobs.

And of course, check out my game as well, Evolution RTS. All original IP.
Website: http://www.evolutionrts.info/
Installer: http://evolutionrts.info/evolutionpatch ... taller.exe

*Ahem* I'm looking for team members... *hint hint*

PS. forgive Day and Gota, they're just cranky ;p

Edit: O also, check out http://www.springinfo.info for a lot of helpful information about spring.

nxain wrote:
Now, the criticisms...

1) Spring is just too damn hard to run and find mods for. Each product must be looked at holistically - it doesn't do any good to have great game play if the user can't figure out how to get the game started. I'm currently using Spring on two computers and have ended up with two versions of the TASclient (one as a single player button and the other one doesn't). It's very likely that you're losing 4/5 players after the install of Spring, before they have a chance to really get into the game. From what I've seen, the whole user experience should be mapped out and redesigned for ease of use.

The new spring version includes the newest Tasclient, it gives a box which asks for username/pass or new account details when started.

2) Spring needs a core, flagship game that is unique and associated with the full capabilities of Spring. Updating TA forever, ripping off Star Wars and various other IPs is not the way to go in the long run. From what I've seen so far, Spring is too good to stay in that ghetto space. Also, an unique IP will give the artists and developers a chance to shine and show their full creativity. Here are some suggestions I have:
a) A Steampunk RTS - Steampunk is hot and gamers have been familiar with it for years. The art style and gameplay would shine in Spring. Even better, there are no real competitors.
b) An anime based RTS that is done in cell shaded style and brings brings the depth and future vision associated with anime (not just big robots, but a vision of a particular setting and conflict). Again, this lends itself to heavy stylization.
c) A realistic Mars colonization / conflict game where the resource collection is based on what it takes to really build a civilization on Mars and potential human conflicts. Feel free to call it "Mars Nation" (A.I. driven robots declaring indepedence on Mars and trying to keep humans off planet? Corporate factions fighting over exploitation rights?)
d) An RTS based on inter-dimensional warfare. Why not throw everything into the mix and allow vampires to fight robots to fight facists to fight elves. While a little crazy in theme, this approach has potential to be incredibly fun, especially if done tongue-in-cheek (what's better than laughing at what you're seeing on screen while you annihilate your opponent?

Problem is, everyone is just playing ta at the moment, (that might change with pure) and people do not get paid to be here or something, they come, and make what they want, becaus everyone thinks that what he makes is best, it's very hard to get a project started and get people to help you.

3) The Spring website looks nice, but needs more work in tying together all the pieces of Spring into a nice, easy to get, easy to update package. It often seemed like I have been going in circles trying to find the right mod or update to download. Just like a game, the website needs to be very direct and put everything you want to get within a couple of clicks. Ideally, Spring itself would be the gateway for getting content, but I don't think the TASclient does this effectively.

The new website is just up, work is being done, and in the client there is an autodownloader, which downloads the mod/map of the game you join (in the new version).

Problem with spring is that when you've made it though the lobby part, 1/2 of the times the game doesnt work, becaus you need otacontent or whatever.

@FA problem is, nobody plays evo, when you have that 1.0 done, I hope you'll get an autohost and play, set dates and times for matches on the forums, ect...

e: and what's steampunk?

Hoi wrote: @FA problem is, nobody plays evo, when you have that 1.0 done, I hope you'll get an autohost and play, set dates and times for matches on the forums, ect...

Only cause I don't ceaselessly sit in the lobby and spam or even have a game open etc. :-/

I'm kinda waiting on my 1.0 because it has all the stuff that I've wanted for so long.

Unfortunately I have a bigger problem. For whatever reason the lua stuff in SVN versions of spring causes a CTD, and unless lurker fixes it (he is the one that wrote it), I'm severely screwed. It is fine is 76b1, but when the new verison of spring comes, currently I'm pretty much toast.

I dont want one flagship game. Why should spring be all about fighting for mars...or some other goddamn theme.

What I like about spring is the diversity(stupid word). One map is a beautiful canyon with a river, the next one is a giant bmp of a goose. Awesome!!!

No offense but the day that spring gets one lead developer is the day it will die.


IMO all your suggestions are just to make the game more marketable but not better.

edit: also I find spring pretty easy to install and start. There are many "how to start"s in the wiki and forum. There are autoupdaters, springloader etc.
The reason there is no one-click-installer is because there isnt ONE Spring. Spring is a crapload of mods, games, maps, widgets ais and so on.

the-middleman wrote: No offense but the day that spring gets one lead developer is the day it will die.

It has one lead developer. His name is Tobi.

the-middleman wrote:I dont want one flagship game. Why should spring be all about fighting for mars...or some other goddamn theme.

No offense but the day that spring gets one lead developer is the day it will die.

IMO all your suggestions are just to make the game more marketable but not better.

The funny thing is, I just installed Pure and it worked without any extra work by the end user.

I think you're really confusing "marketable" and "better". Better for who? "Better" for Spring and the various mods would be an application that brings in new blood and talent without forcing people to play detective to figure out how to get and run the project. Wanting to set the bar high for basic use of the application smacks as trying to be elitist.

Also, a flagship project is very healthy for project development. It drives features and polish to a level that nothing else will. An excellent example is Blender. The flagship projects on the tool and game side keep blender moving very quickly and development focused on features that give the most bang for the buck (without keeping anybody else from using Blender or modifying blender any way he wants to.)

- nXain

nxain wrote:The funny thing is, I just installed Pure and it worked without any extra work by the end user.

That's the way it's supposed to work, even though people here think of convenience as some sort of a disease.

You'll find similar ease when installing Evolution.

Forboding Angel wrote:

the-middleman wrote: No offense but the day that spring gets one lead developer is the day it will die.

It has one lead developer. His name is Tobi.

Suppose he actually means a lead developer who's not procrastinating on lead dev tasks and actually rules spring (and subprojects) like a dictator

I have pretty thick skin... you have to in order to be a professional game developer. I've been called everything by everyone (publishers, designers, customers, whatever). The fact is, when you're juggling technology, people, game play, the basics of what makes a good product and a budget, you have to offend some people (usually quite a few) to end with something decent.

The reality of development is that it's very difficult to have more than one strong vision for a product (a movie, a game, a book and etc.) It can be done, but its a huge challenge. Small projects with a strong vision tend to come out better than committee efforts.

On the legal front... any derivative IP is owned by the owner of the IP, whether it's a labor of love or not (unless it's fine art, which a game mod is not). That doesn't help Spring or Open Source other than inviting law suits. As for Gundam, it's already a pretty rich world with detailed units, backstory, factions and etc. Personally, I'd love to make a Cowboy Bebop MMO, but I'm not touching that without Bandai paying me to do it. And honestly, its just more fulfilling to create your own IP and express your own vision.

On the usability side, I adhere to two design principals (both of which are the "ideal" that are striven for, but never reached:

1) Can your mom use the product? If not, you're not designing it right.

2) Do you need an instruction manual? A game should teach you how to play itself. A manual, although useful, is the wrong place to begin with a game.

Spring, despite being an open source project, has the usability and distribution issues as any other game platform. To make matters worse, the end-user seems to be treated with hostility (this is akin to me painting a picture and screaming "don't look at my artwork!") Coming from the commercial side, I find the disdain for the end user really difficult to understand. Imagine if you designed a car with no care for the end-user. Air bags? Bah! Look at this cool fender!

When it comes to starting a new Spring mod group, I'm certainly tempted and may dig in. I'm not quite sure yet if I really have the bandwidth to do it well (making games is my day job, so the potential for burnout is pretty high). I'm also still sizing up Spring to evaluate how far I think a mod team could get in polish and gameplay.

Nonetheless, I'm still going to tell you what I think.

- nXain

Maybe time for to stop flamebaiting and interpreting stuff in the worst way possible for themselves.

Thanks for your constructive criticism nxain.

Then I have to apologize for misunderstanding you Nxian. I mistook your statement for something else.

I'll keep making gundam, the only thing that could stop me is my health or bandai. Of course I have said many times that after I get gundam rts done I am showing it to them and I intend on trying to help promote the one year war series. To bandai this does represent sales of one of their favorite products. Model kits. I know that several people who have played gundam ended up buying the models of their favorite units. So part of my later plan is not only to advertise the project but also point people to places where they can buy the anime and model kits. Which I am sure bandai will be happy to see. Because that does mean relevant $$ to them Cowboy bebop does not have a thriving toy line and does not need something to help market it to more of the younger generation.

I read a lot about gundam and I am the single biggest fanatic I know. If anything I am helpful.

Yes a project of my own is neat and it isn't that I have no concept of my own for a different and unrelated project. However, gundam is what I want to see happen. You do not really want that MMO enough to make it happen. Then it would be to understand what I am doing.

Forb, no it was pretty blatant.
*edits needed to separate out the apology.

smoth wrote:Forb, no it was pretty blatant.

Yes, it was blatent, however,

Considering tobi wiped the thread, would be better not to revive the flames, however, I still believe that you didn't understand the context that he was using. Be that as it may, words change nothing.

just putting this out there... if every mod developer DID work together on a flagship project, it would be mind-blowingly good due to all of the talented artists and programmers currently working on spring content.

at this point, i'd like everyone who has worked hard on a spring project to pat yourselves on the back. <3

addressing the points, as a relatively new user myself

1) i was VERY confused when i first grabbed the installer, but i clicked the options to install absolutely everything and it worked out alright. something that freaked me out a bit was that the maplink from the battle window was broken, but i believe this was fixed in TASClient 0.37. once you discover jobjol or one of the other download sites OR CA downloader, you're pretty much okay but i defenitely remember a period of confusion. I dont think it's unreasonable to assume that one of the next few versions of spring client software will include the option to automatically download ALL of the content rather than just the maps, similar to CA downloader but integrated and automatic for the sake of noobs (or at least a version of the installer with CA downloader included.) something else i'd like to see is an optional news page that pops up when you load the lobby telling you "new TASClient released!" or "new version of blah blah blah mod" (might get a few more people willing to try new mods and games that way, just an idea)

2) like i said, i've been amazed at some of the things that people have made in this community for spring; but at the same time i think that this thread shows exactly the sort of roadblocks that would arise were people to try to get all of the best guys together to work on a mod heads would bump, tears would be shed and too many cooks would spoil the broth. however, it seems like there are MANY good mods in development right now, and there's a good chance that any or all of them could become springs "flagship" game, only time will tell... i'm just reminded of the success of counter-strike, which pretty much started as a good idea and a few friends mucking around with the half-life engine and modding, and now people get paid to PLAY the damn thing so have faith. good ideas for mod themes though, maybe someone will see your post and be inspired :)

as far as "fan-art" type mods go, i see no problems at all with that... with star wars AND gundam i've watched extensively and i know for sure i've thought to myself at least once "this would make a badass RTS." (although, where are my ewoks? i demand ewoks and wing zero spam. jk)

3) again, i agree with you there, for new players to easily get into playing games with spring, there needs to be more integration with the client application, but again, just about every aspect of spring is in constant development, just the other week i was reading a post about a redesign of a client application with a sexy graphical interface... so again, have faith. not sure if you saw the OLD site design, but compared to this new one, it was like eating glass. so yes, progress there too

BTW welcome to spring!

smoth wrote: You do not really want that MMO enough to make it happen. Then it would be to understand what I am doing.

Honestly, I think you have some real misconceptions on how the entertainment and game industries work, especially when it comes to IP, branding and ownership. If I was at Bandai, I would look at you as tainting the brand (regardless of the quality of the work - that's not the point). You were right to say that it's not so in Japan, as fan art is supported, but in America (and probably to Bandai America), it's probably not considered fan art. Also, in Japan fan art usually means fan made manga that is allowed to be distributed. The closest thing we have to fan art in the U.S. is all the work done based on Star Wars. LucasArts is lenient, but they do break out the lawyers every so often.

Still, if it is a labor of love for you, then more power to you. My only real point is that derivative IP should not be the face of Spring that people first encounter and probably can't drive the engine in the long term.

As far as making an MMO goes... I have made an MMO. It's a monumental task akin to building a pyramid (I nerfed the Shadow Armor). I would like to do another one, but I'm not ready to devote another 5 years of my life to a single project and I don't want to do another "amusement park" style MMO. Also, with that kind of investment of sweat, I'd like to own the IP rather than making someone else rich. Making a game is too much work to do it for someone else unless they willing to pay big bucks up front. At the studio I'm at now, I have a stake in the engine, the products and the IP (all of which are from where a studio's value is derived).

- nXain

The IP thing is exactly the reason we don't have a primary mod/game at this moment. For those who don't know the entire Spring history, XTA used to be the primary mod/game. It was the only one shipped with Spring, it was always released with Spring, it was originally made by the same guys who initiated Spring.

However, because it's based on TA content and the development of XTA split off from the development of Spring after the creators of the Spring universe retired from Spring and XTA, we decided to drop it as primary mod/game, and change it's status to that of any other mod/game.

As of now the focus of the Spring engine is more and more to move to a generic realtime strategy game engine. That this goal is slowly coming closer and closer can be seen by looking at mods/games like PURE, Gundam Annihilation and various of the cool niche, tech demo-esque mods/games that I've seen recently in the Games & Mods subforum.

As is proven by PURE, this also means much of the end user experience comes in the hands of the modder/game designer. He/she is the one who can decide on pretty much everything with regards to UI: the in game UI is totally customizable, there are various lobby clients each having their own USPs (there are lobbies with integrated downloading), it isn't hard to customize the installer, or even build your own one from scratch, etc.

Not much mods/games take advantage of these possibilities though.
With regards to a new flagship game: this has been tried some times already, but unfortunately there are always some problems. Usually the thing just never gets finished, in other cases there are licensing issues or jealousy or whatever in play. In either case, I don't really believe this will happen anytime soon. (I do agree though that it would be a good thing if we had it.)

For the Spring "engine and installer" project I think major opportunities lie in making the customization by modders/game designers easier. Then the competition between mods/games would probably increase and indirectly the end user experience.

Thing is I never wanted to be the face of the spring engine, I spend more time telling people play other projects. Gundam is gundam, I want it to be off to the side and happily doing it's gundamy thing. I am not devoting years of work to something to promote spring. I just do stuff for it from time to time.

There are many projects that are independent IP beyond pure. Several of them are minigames. However, all of them outside of PURE are done as hobbyist type projects. Meaning the people do it to tinker around in the evenings for fun. Trying to create an official mod team means people will come home to slave away on someone else's idea. I do not know of anyone here in this community who will do that.

If anything the community here is only one in the idea that we largely but not always will help each other and play together. Past the main engine devs most of us are here to tinker around.

Also your post brings to mind, what if money wasn't a primary concern? I have a job that makes the bills and doesn't kill me to do, I get payed to program but what I do in my off time is not restricted. I do gundam as a hobby, like some people paint toy soldiers, build a train set or play rpgs.

Another issue with suggesting that someone sit down and make a sort of primary mod for spring is that if someone does that it would cease showing off spring's capabilities the moment it's design is complete. Spring is very functional, feature rich and still has a lot of work on going. With the engine having many features planned in the future a design now might need to be entirely scrapped later. Each project in it's own way contributes(provide the authors share content) to a large code and asset pool. We have many scripts, effects, and models that are there for the taking/modification with that library growing slowly.

In time people will be able to take spring and make just about anything and I suspect the large variety of projects in development each with it's own divergent path will present many different looks at what the engine is capable of.

IMHO the Spring engine is not in position to adopt any mod as primary. There are several releases cooking (Gundam, PURE in RC stage, SWIW will join soon, I hope) which make fine standalone games by themselves and they should be promoted as such. I don't believe there's much to be gained trying to promote PURE to *A fanbase or SW fanbase, etc. (and the other way around). Spring is just a common platform for those games. The respective communities should take care to give information about it for their own good, to attract more knowledgeable players to the engine/widget/mod/map development.

imbaczek wrote:IMHO the Spring engine is not in position to adopt any mod as primary. There are several releases cooking (Gundam, PURE in RC stage, SWIW will join soon, I hope) which make fine standalone games by themselves and they should be promoted as such. I don't believe there's much to be gained trying to promote PURE to *A fanbase or SW fanbase, etc. (and the other way around). Spring is just a common platform for those games. The respective communities should take care to give information about it for their own good, to attract more knowledgeable players to the engine/widget/mod/map development.

I'm farther away than some, but fairly soon Evo can be included in that list, and yes, you pretty much took the word from my mouth. 100% agreed.

My sentiments are currently being excreted out of my heavily armoured, shiny behind.