Spring RTS Engine

there's a massive disconnect between the TA and starcraft communities and this is an effort to improve mutual comprehension

i am a retarded fan of both franchises and i don't see why you shouldn't be if you're appreciative of the RTS genre at all


Iris T vs Jaedong Z @ Python, the first match of the Shinhan Proleague Finals between CJ Entus and LeCaf Oz:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sg2CR4Eqn4

Bisu on B.Net Attack!, a tv program where the public can challenge progamers over battle.net:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApYP9OEbkMg

Kwanro Z vs Kal P @ Blue Storm, MSL 4th season Round of 16:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTsU3OcV5G8


Latest subtitle jobs for Battle.net Attack!

GoRush:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e18ancDxBUE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DW4CRVERcAE

Firebathero:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hZlqar34Ts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJAxljlRe2s


Massive kudos to FConnectionUK, who translated and authored the subtitles
original thread here:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmes ... c_id=65727


also, if you're looking for more english language starcraft commentary, i can't recommend the Ascension tournament enough, an invitational of virtually every single top foreign (non-Korean) amateur from around the world hosted by [Media]
http://www.mediaesports.com/tv/ascension/



just for lulz:
http://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/index ... 92052b20d8
http://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/index ... 6a12dc473f
http://www.grapheine.com/bombaytv/index ... e0a81b0e81

fyi, MBS stands for multiple building selection

First Thing - thx for this Post - seems you put a lot of work in.

Second Thing - the great Gap is not there without Reason. Starcraft is pure(/ArghAdd) Micro - while Spring takes that part (not counting the first battles) completely of your hands, forcing you to use strategy as it was always ment to be...

I still wish we had that starcraft Crowd of ProGamers to playe EE & Pure...

subtitled commentaries are a gift from god. Thank you erasmus <3

Make a Starcraft mod for Spring with the help of these people, and you'll see an invasion of koreans pretty fast!

BTW, thanks for those links, the first TvZ is awesome!

erasmus wrote: i am a retarded fan of both franchises and i don't see why you shouldn't be if you're appreciative of the RTS genre at all

because one size does not fit all! We can still appreciate the genre but not LOVE starcraft.

I wonder if they have cosplay Marines/Zerg/Protoss fluffers for the pros while they wait for their turn...

BlueTemplar wrote:Make a Starcraft mod for Spring with the help of these people, and you'll see an invasion of koreans pretty fast!

With starcraft II coming out i highly doubt that

Well, of course until starcraft 2 comes out...

PicassoCT wrote:Second Thing - the great Gap is not there without Reason. Starcraft is pure(/ArghAdd) Micro - while Spring takes that part (not counting the first battles) completely of your hands, forcing you to use strategy as it was always ment to be...

starcraft is not pure micro...

all the fundamentals and principles of a _strategy_ game are present in both ta and starcraft

- the importance of constant scouting and intelligence gathering about your opponent, and conversely, scouting/information denial or fakes and feints
- the role of the map in determining game flow and strategy, such as map control, the role of dropships, the role of chokepoints or elevated terrain, how terrain affects the movement of armies, differential success of land/air/sea units on different maps, etc.
- the role of micro in extracting maximum battle effectiveness from your armies, from formations to "dancing" units to battlefield repair to withdrawing high-value damaged units to tactical retreats when caught disadvantageous to entrapment/encirclement to economy raiding and harrassment etc.
- the role of macro in maximizing your economy, economic expansion, and unit production (army composition+size/rallying reinforcements,etc.)
- the multitasking that seperates the average players from the best, by carrying out both micro and macro effectively, and responding to opponents' moves as fast and efficiently as possible or increasing the effectiveness of your own harrassment
- the importance of the "combined arms" approach and maximizing units' effectiveness by using them in tandem, covering each other's weakness or maximizing DPS across all ranges
- the decision-making involved in the delicate 3-way balance between massing (stockpiling military units), powering (economic development and spamming nanotowers/con units), and teching (getting more powerful/more specialized/fightingpower-magnifying units), all based on what your opponent is doing


i could go on....but if you look carefully they are both outstanding, deep games of their genre


the major differences are superficial facets of the gameplay

- ta spring has an incredibly powerful user interface, making accomplishing all these things somewhat less demanding and punishing than in starcraft (hence the ballyhoo about APM and "clickfest")

- ta spring has uncapped limit to scale, due to things like exponential economic growth, no unit count limit, and large maps
but that hardly ever reaches its potential in real matches, especially team games, because nobody can play maps like trenches lag-free

- starcraft has powerful spellcasters, which can dramatically change the effectiveness of armies
but they can be translated into equivalent "normal" TA unit roles
e.g. the high templar's psi storm might be comparable to the core tremor
the defiler's dark swarm is kind of like the plasma shield generator
the arbiter's stasis field is like the stunning long range missile

Bisu on B.Net Attack!, a tv program where the public can challenge progamers over battle.net:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApYP9OEbkMg

These are pretty good. Since they talk about the strats and explain why they do certain things , one can learn a great deal from them


got any more?

Even by watching... I just learned a new trick : to stop the dragoons just before they finish their reload to fire more efficiently, never tried that before!

Browsing the Battle.net forums, I stumbled on a thread about TA.

Ah, the ancient neverending SC vs TA flamewar.

I like to think that spring is more then just TA and that we someday even have a spring mod/game that has gameplay similar to starcraft.

While we're at it, why not connect to the Warzone community? One day, spring might support similar features. I hope. I hear Warzone actually won more awards than TA. You know there is a Warzone 2200 project, as well as an open source revival project. I think Warzone had even more potential than TA when it comes to focusing strategy on a grand scale.

What we need is to branch out to all the corners of the genre, and quit using TA as our flagship (How long have people been saying to replace the banner?) We need more people from the other styles making mods here, and we need to adapt the Spring engine to support them. One day Spring might even threaten the commercial industry, but not under TA alone.

For the TA vs SC:
They're both RTS-es, but they're different kinds of. Both are exceptional for the kinds they are.

Sleksa wrote:

Bisu on B.Net Attack!, a tv program where the public can challenge progamers over battle.net:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApYP9OEbkMg

These are pretty good. Since they talk about the strats and explain why they do certain things , one can learn a great deal from them


got any more?

unfortunately, FConnectionUK hasn't released any new subtitle jobs yet

if you're more interested in understanding the basics of play i hear they're prepping a project over at teamliquid.net that is basically the ultimate tutorial compilation for folks new to competitive SC, complete with commentary and explanations for basically all matchups, and fundamental theory in each, and a lot of demonstrations for the most common micro techniques that one would use

here's a sample "under construction" clip:
http://video.audiocommentaries.net/tuto ... croOrb.avi

and the thread:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmes ... c_id=67891

in the meanwhile, check out the link in OP for the Ascension tournament... the commentating is not as good as the Koreans, and they're catering towards a more experienced crowd.... but you'll still learn a ton and the games are really high level and entertaining (nvm the fact you can root for your country's top players )


still want more?

there are many fpvods w/ commentating available on the teamliquid torrent tracker

OVER 9000!!!!!!! quality replays may be found at:
http://sc.gosugamers.net/replays/
http://www.teamliquid.net/replay/
http://iccup.com/iccclanleague/ (look for clan wars in division A)

Reading that thread... I suppose I did expect it being that TA players are ever jealous of the massive success of starcraft, but the majority of starcraft players really only have mostly nice things to say about TA and TA gameplay. When you've played enough of the TA based games in multiplayer you really see the cracks starting to form... I don't think I'd even be as nice to TA as most of them are

As for WarZone: If they can get it running, I'd love to see as much support from the spring community as possible. It looks like the perfect kind of game for lobby compatibility anyways.

War Zone was that game where you chose your chassis and then you chose what gun was gonna go on it, right?

yeah... it did the lego system before the earth series started doing it...

also had a robust intel system that included counter-battery radar and a ton of other stuff...

I read numerous claims that Starcraft is the best RTS ever made. This disturbs me, and it certainly should disturb you as well; Cavedogs loyal fans.

For those who don't know it, Starcraft is an RTS similar to Warcraft (infact Warcraft is Starcraft with superior graphics, etc). It was released in 1998, and no one cares who made this game. It was a mystery, it never saw light (Faggots were blocking the sun back then), and it still IS a mystery.

My question is, why do some people think that Starcraft is the best RTS of all time? WHY?


EDIT:
P.S. Just wanted to get this out of my system. I wanted someone to demolish this game using TA.

4 words/reasons why people consider SC better than TA

Blizzard
Battle.net
Storyline
Simpler (in some ways)