Spring RTS Engine

I felt like making a topic comparating CA with BA to try to get some more people to play CA :) Off course, this wont be just ad. I hope that we will end up having a very smart and rational discussion about whats best on wich mod (altough I bet it will end in a huge flamewar).

So, since I like CA more and cant really think of points where BA was better, I will start out defending CA :)

I Think CA its better than BA because:

*CA has a economy mainly based on metal extractors, metal making economy is mostly only worth making once all your mexes are tech 2, but its not unworth enough to not be used.X BA metal maker economy is highly efficient on tech 2, what makes expansion unworth the trouble once you are in tech 2. It also makes tech 2 rushing more workable than it would be desirable.

*CA has economy center wich produces special builder to make advanced economy structures, that makes a pleasant separation between economy and warfare. it is also quite cheap what helps then you are making econ :) X BA has warfare and economy linked since the advanced forms of both require tech 2 factory. I find that anyoing

*CA economy keeps a slow pace of growth during the whole game, except at early massive mex occupation. X BA economy growth shots sky high after a while then players got to tech 2 what causes the game to become too lag and in somewhat ridiculous proportions.

*CA units can morph in they tech 2 versions if so you wish, what saves the time of builders going there to upgrade. X Ba has no morphing units.

*CA has builders be always tech 1 (even from tech 2 factory) and then be morpable to tech 2. X In BA you need a tech 2 factory to have acess to tech 2 buildings.

*CA has cloacking fields, what allows for better cloacking attacks. X BA has jammers but not cloacking fields, so only a few cloackable units could be used for cloacking attacks, and eventually they would be detected since the jammer that has to accompany then cant cloack. (least not last time I saw)

*CA tech 2 warfare complements tech 1 warfare. X BA tech 2 warfare
is completly superior to tech 1 warfare making it compleltly useless and thus reducing the variation of the game.

*CA has builders wich can make any factory, jumping the anyoing need of having to make, for example, a tech 1 kbots factory to have tech 2 kbots or to have to make a factory, make builder and reclaim factory to make hovers. X In BA tech 2 factories can only be made by the builders of that same class, and the commander cannot make the hover factory.

*CA has greater energy needs and adv economy doesnt add storages, so you must make storages and more energy structures to sustain ourself, what are also more targets to be attacked. X BA has very small energy requirements on tech 1 and adv economy adds storages, so storages are mostly useless (economy is not big enough to need then before adv economy) and there are all around very little economy targets to attack, beside tech 1 mexes wich are rebuilt very fast and the factories.

Thats all. I may add more stuff later cause I dont really remember if thats all :)

Whoever wins, Xta still loses.

This is just asking for trouble.

Double-plus unworth?

Fun fact:
Pretty much every point made can be converted into a pro BA argument. Examples:

*Morphing for metal extractors is stupid. If they have an internal nano why can't they repair themselves (rofl when thinking of self-healing Moho Exploiters)?

*You cannot build T2 workers instantly but have to wait for one and a half minute until morphing is done. You cannot speed up the morphing by nanos either giving you no possibility to get a T2 worker at reasonable speed...

*Clever rating of the map and choosing the right unit path as strategic decision isn't existent in CA as you always can build any lab types without "penalties"...

So what's the conclusion? This discussion (at least at the current level) will lead to nothing. You can show your opinion but that's not going to be a "discussion" which has the result that one of the two is better. It's just a matter of taste. Personally I don't like CA that much (what doesn't mean I think it's bad) because I dislike many design decisions. Imo the most annoying thing is that it still is very inconsistent - check it out after two months having passed and you'll find some drastical changes to the gameplay again (last time it was the Commander being able to build all labs I think)...

[Krogoth86] wrote:Fun fact:
Pretty much every point made can be converted into a pro BA argument. Examples:

*Morphing for metal extractors is stupid. If they have an internal nano why can't they repair themselves (rofl when thinking of self-healing Moho Exploiters)?

*You cannot build T2 workers instantly but have to wait for one and a half minute until morphing is done. You cannot speed up the morphing by nanos either giving you no possibility to get a T2 worker at reasonable speed...

*Clever rating of the map and choosing the right unit path as strategic decision isn't existent in CA as you always can build any lab types without "penalties"...

So what's the conclusion? This discussion (at least at the current level) will lead to nothing. You can show your opinion but that's not going to be a "discussion" which has the result that one of the two is better. It's just a matter of taste. Personally I don't like CA that much (what doesn't mean I think it's bad) because I dislike many design decisions. Imo the most annoying thing is that it still is very inconsistent - check it out after two months having passed and you'll find some drastical changes to the gameplay again (last time it was the Commander being able to build all labs I think)...

1. Logic is not always necessary nor wanted to make a good game :)
2. Half a minute is little time, if you consider that you dont need the make a super-expensive building nor to occup it to have tech 2 builders.
3. There really shouldnt be penalities for building a drastically diferent factory from the one you have now, as that limit the variation of the game. Example: In BA I liked tech 2 core kbots, but would rarely make em because tech 1 core kbots sucked soo much I would be in trouble if I started with then.
4. It is true that most are matters of chosing, but you are wrong into thinking that opinions arent to be discussed. If one mod was simply better than the other there would be nothing to discuss right? :)

They do heal themselves... autoregeneration?

neddiedrow wrote:They do heal themselves... autoregeneration?

I of course was referring to this as repairs that also happen during battles and are equal to the workertime used when comparing building it with constructors and morphing it...

Careful not to turn this into a flame war, chaps, ok?

well its obvious which mod im siding with here :p

@ krogoth

CA being inconsitent is a lie its always tried to deviate from its roots of just being another *A balance mod some of the new units feel out of place model wise so do alot of stuff compared to how OTA was.. Seeing as we dont have all the content to do everything in one go progression will be slow. So some stuff might seem out of place but is heading for a certain design goal (which does change a bit here or there in the proccess but is still pretty consitent) ofc this doesnt just apply to new models it applies to gameplay features alot of the stuff r new ideas or stuff thats been said that needs testing and might or might have not got fully implemented

any1 can argue pro's and con's likes and dislikes of CA and BA

its personal preferance at the end of the day

and i prefer CA to BA by a longshot (dusnt mean i still dont have my problems with CA but it is my faiv spring mod atm and has the greatest potential of any of the *A mods (which is being more than a *A mod))

the reasons u gave manored might be why u prefer CA over BA..

ill give my own reasons..

Dynamic , Fast Gameplay with alot of viable strategies whilst being fun and innovative, Faction Diversity

Otherside wrote:well its obvious which mod im siding with here :p

I thought he was gonna go with CA after reading this first line, but man he slaughtered CA in his post.

Otherside wrote:CA being inconsitent is a lie its always tried to deviate from its roots of just being another *A balance mod some of the new units feel out of place model wise so do alot of stuff compared to how OTA was..

Well I got the impression you didn't get what I wanted to say. Graphics are something I didn't mention and also aren't that important imo (otherwise I wouldn't play games with 3do units). In fact I think CA is rather looking nice GFX wise...

I was telling of gameplay issues which in fact have been very inconsistent. I'm not talking of some unit changes here or a new unit like the egg there because that's okay but I'm focusing on the really serious gameplay changes. From removing jammers for Core and replacing them with shields to ripping of the T2 Eco to a seperate Eco-Tree to making the Commander to one who's in charge of all the Lab building there have been several major changes on the gameplay. You cannot explain that with a "we just want to be different from *A mods". This have been ideas that (afaik) have come up and were integrated afterwards. While not looking at if this changes were good or not this is what I meant with CA being inconsistent as I know of no roadmap where you could look up "Hey after putting in the Core shields let's revamp the Labs-buildtree"...

So with that said you had those "WTF is that again?!" every couple of months I told of...

Otherside wrote:the reasons u gave manored might be why u prefer CA over BA..

To say the truth I didn't give reasons but wanted (and did imo) prove that the listed "arguments" just were opinions as you easily could turn them around to say the opposite and still have a valid point...

The inconsistence examples you gave there look more like mod design options, considering that they are changes wich are probally not being unmade :) Inconsistence would be something like turning a certain unit to a certain role and shortly after giving it even another role and keep on like that...

Im aware of the fact that its a matter of opinion. Thats why I wrote "I think" there. I just think that even matters of personal opinion can (and should) be discussed, and each person should expose its opinion. If people never tried to convince people other people to think like em, everthing would be solved with big stick :)

Ah and remember another good reason to play CA: Commander received several changes to solve the gameplay issues around him: dgun energy costs depends of proximity to base, commanders are immune to dgun shots, commander blasts have same area but cause lots less damage, less enough for another commanders to survive it, so combombing is unworth and in a commanders quarrel whoever has more support wins.

manored wrote:The inconsistence examples you gave there look more like mod design options, considering that they are changes wich are probally not being unmade :)

Well what else is your definition of inconsistence if having a new idea inside which totally changes the gameplay up to this day every few months isn't something inconsistent?

If there is a master plan please show em to me because I would have missed it then but the way I see it those changes are "recent" ideas that didn't sound bad (or even in fact are a "nice change") and get implemented. But without any major goal or plan behind it this becomes somewhat random and this way inconsistent because who knows how some rather basic game mechanics will work in two months from now...

CA has better looking nuke

CA uses more original models? (ie, not from the original ta game). Good enough for me!

I like how CA has faction difference. ARM is stealthy, fast, ranged, uses emp and core has firepower, sheilds, more health, flame. Also kbots are a lot more viable in CA and commbombing isn't a game ender.

[Krogoth86] wrote:*You cannot build T2 workers instantly but have to wait for one and a half minute until morphing is done. You cannot speed up the morphing by nanos either giving you no possibility to get a T2 worker at reasonable speed...

Yea I find this annoying, hopefully it will get fixed somehow.

Maybe if they start the mod from scratch.

The unit responses are killing my ears though I do hope that's only temporary.

Vadi wrote:The unit responses are killing my ears though I do hope that's only temporary.

check the ingame sound options turn off voices if it annoys u. Put on noises if u want ota sounds.

Turn off both if u want mute units