Spring RTS Engine

While i'm quite happy with the new releases in terms of bugfixes and improved stability, there is one major real problem with this new version that gets in the way of gameplay game after game - The change that units cannot ascend over steep slopes any longer.

This is in itself, a sensible change, but has effectively rendered some maps much more painful to play (eg. Lava highground & small divide). This is because the choke points leading in and out of each base have effectively become MUCH narrower - on small divide, for example, units can only reach the middle area through a gap about 1/4 of the original width (By this i dont mean the huge mountain ranges, they SHOULD effectively be walls, but parts of the center area are too difficult for units to navigate).

On lava highgrounds, also, the entrances tend to become just barely wide enough for 1 large unit to navigate..

The end result of this, is that these narrow choke points fill up with wreckage in seconds, rendering them impassable in the heat of combat - creating a rather frustrating standoff.

This change, while sensible, and perhaps more true to OTA, creates a lot of very real issues that i feel can cripple gameplay at times - So i request that a simple change might be made to:-
- add the option to turn this feature on or off in the lobby.
- raise the maximum angle units can ascend.
or
- add a variable angle that players can change in the lobby.

Less crucial, and not related to v0.50, but much appreciated, would be an option to turn trees on/off in the lobby - like the maximum unit angle for ascent, trees are a sensible feature that can add to the strategy, but much more often than not, IMO they just wreak havoc with the pathfinding and tend to be a royal pain in the arse..

Just food for thought

I've noticed this too while messing around with a metal map called Crosspaths. It's got four large low "platforms" at the corners where the spawn points are, with broad little ramps leading down around the edges, and now vehicles simply can't get up or down them. I built a bunch of vehicle plants on my platform and then found that their output was only useful for base defence. :) It seemed like a bug to me, the ramps were clearly intended to be passable by vehicles.

It could be good that unit could climb very steep hill for, for exemple 0.5 sec.

You're making suggestions to conform the engine to the mod. Maybe we'll finally get to adapting mods to the engine instead?
Like 'units should climb steeper slopes' - that's a 100% modder task. The only engine change regarding slopes would be to keep a unit's inertia when going uphill, and when that has gone, the unit can only turn and go down.

Well, I am against having variability settings on maps. Map makers need to design with a knowledge of how players will play the map. If a map maker designs a valley map, for example, he should be able to do so knowing that units can scale this area, but not this area. Greater variability reduces the playability, as well as reducing what the map maker is able to do in terms of influencing the flow of gameplay.
But yeah, unit scaling limits should probably be increased a bit.

Trees shouldn't be turned off either; they are an important part of gameplay, both in reclaiming and in changing the flow of battle (and obscuring units; hell, I still think units should cloak when immobile in forests in Spring), so you can't really get rid of them.

I still think units should cloak when immobile in forests in Spring

Would be a cool way to create an ambush.

Rather, trees should block LOS.

I think that LOS obstruction is not necesserily the best solution. There are a number of complications that arise from it; what happens when aircraft fly over? Shouldn't units still be concealed? What about units on hills? What about if units are moving, wouldn't that reveal their position?

Cloaking does away with all those issues. For example, units will be revealed if they move, and units will not be revealed by aircraft. It also offers two advantages:
1) Players can see whether their units are hidden or not, as the cloaking animation is activated
2) Different units can be granted cloaking or not. Obviously, a krogoth standing in a forest would not be able to hide itself. Also, it would give unit makers control, being able to allow a unit like a kbot to hide itself quickly, while a unit like a tank would take a longer amount of time, etc.

I had an idea - make it so that the slowdown due to hills, as well as the speed up going downhill, is dependant on gravity (not completely, but partially. Not sure what the real life equations are). That would be SOOO cool. Then if we get some more advanced phsyics, we can make low gravity maps where vehicles climb a slope and fly off into the air for a while - OH YEAH!
Anyway, you can't afford to make it just a variable changed in the battle room, it has to be set for the map. Gravity is one way, but you could just give it it's own value.

it's not so much a mod problem - i dont even think the max slope angle climbable has anything to do with the unit stats, although i may be wrong.

but simply put, just an option to turn it on and off, suiting the player's preference would be much appreciated..

each unit has a tag in their .fbi file that says how steep of a slope they can climb.
previously, it just affected how quickly they could climb things, but now it says just what they can climb.

something as simple as updating the OTA patch to increase the unit's max climbing angle would work, no need to complicate the engine.

(the tag is MaxSlope=#; for those who want to mess around with it...keep in mind that modifying the .fbi stats will require you to repack the unit into a new ufo, and you won't be able to play online with it)

I found that after playing crosspaths too, Ive made a new version where the units can go down the ramps, I havnt uploaded it though, should probably do that tonight.

if that's the case i might make an EvOTA mod where that stat is modified somewhat then... wont be able to play online with it with strangers but i tend to always be playing the same people anyway.. or at some stage might experiment with adding this option to the client & battleroom myself, it hardly seems like much work.

fobbah wrote:but simply put, just an option to turn it on and off, suiting the player's preference would be much appreciated..

No, bad idea, it ruins the concept of the map and the work of the map-maker.

As others were saying, adapt the maps to the engine, not the contrary.

But yeah, allow units to climb up to 45 degree slopes, and maybe make kbots better climbers than vehicles. Should the commander be an exception? In TA he was able to climb almost anything.

Gabba, that can already be done. Refer to Nemo:

each unit has a tag in their .fbi file that says how steep of a slope they can climb.
previously, it just affected how quickly they could climb things, but now it says just what they can climb.

if that's the case i might make an EvOTA mod where that stat is modified somewhat then...

This isn't a good idea, atleast until the mod autodownloader program for the online service is provided. Having two slightly different versions of EvOTA lying around is a recipe for disaster.
This either has to be an engine change, a completely community-wide accepted mod or it'll have to wait until the mod switcher is available.
I think a minor engine tweak would be the best option, as it would make sure that all mods have the same ratio of climbing, just increased by approximately 25%.

And maps shouldn't altered to allow for this; it'll force map makers to make more flat and easy slopes, which we need to see less of not more of in Spring.

Gabba - i dont really see how it goes against the map maker, seeing as when they made the maps in the first place, units could climb infinite slopes.. but yeah adapting future maps to the engine would obviously make sense.

and as for Zsinj - i only grudgingly modify the stats for that exact reason, merely so i can play some of the maps properly with a small circle of people.. this is why i suggest it really SHOULD be an engine modification of some sort. Bleh

fobbah, the game is in beta. That means important aspects of the gameplay can and will be modified. We just need to update the maps to match the engine. For example, the change vastly improved gameplay on Core Prime Industrial Area. It should be a minor reworking to release new maps that work with the new engine.

Before people would complain that any step are climbeable. Now they complain that units can't climb cliff any more.

What more concerning is the interaction of "units unable to climb slopes" with "terrain deformation". I wish the SY had read when I typed that:
- To see if the slope should prevent unit movement, use the min of current slope and slope of the original undeformed map.
- To slow down units, use only the current slope.

- To see if the slope should prevent unit movement, use the min of current slope and slope of the original undeformed map.
- To slow down units, use only the current slope.

The problem with this is that it is unintuitive. You should be able to extrude steep slopes that prevent movement. Preventing movement should be based on what the map is now, so that people don't get all confused as to why they can't move...

Personnally, I think it is better that units can't climb hills :

- more realistic,
- more interesting strategy. If units should be able to go anywhere, then why not use a flat map ? The fact that there are obstacles is what makes the strategy.

- it gives power back to defenders and laser towers, which have become much too weak in XTA, and it is a real pity in my opinion.