Spring RTS Engine

So I finally got around to updating this. Which is to say just doing stuff Saktoth said

Should be a lot more duel threat now, with much more reason to go hovers, plus some air only rocks to suck up.

I'm not happy with the centre islands "artificialness" (or it's vulnerability to destroyers) but decided I was too lazy to fix it)

Uses Lstanleys moonrocks (retextured), and huterw's tangerine smd.

Obligatory "pretty" shots...







http://www.unknown-files.net/3596/Flooded_Valley_v2/

Being completely ignorant of 1v1 games, especially on sea, I have no idea how it will play. I've made the mexes a bit more generous than normal to compensate for how expensive ships are.

Ask the players!

I lust for new sea 1v1 maps.

Ill be giving this one a whirl and getting back to you on it.

ralphie wrote:
(also worth noting, it's the 701st map to of stolen tangerines sky, figured i'd throw in credit to hunterw for that )

i appreciate this a lot

more people should steal the WaterAbsorb value in particular. water looks soooo damn much better if it absorbs more light the deeper it gets, and this map is a real good example of why.

I have no idea how it will play but i have to say that it looks good, very good.
credit goes to hunter for the sky but the rest is all yours and it looks excellent. Good job.

Goolash_ wrote: the rest is all yours and it looks excellent. Good job.

quoting for truth

Had a pair of games with flop. Here are my observations.

Due to the fact you can only start ship and the metal is all in the water, you need to worry far less/not at all about hovercraft, and far more about subs- this greatly reduces the role of Corvettes. The only cost effective counter to subs is torpedo launchers, which are out-ranged by destroyers, which is why destroyers come into play (and also their ability to hit subs makes them not totally useless). This means you want to focus primarily on subs and destroyers, which are incredibly expensive and rely heavily on micro to be effective. Its quite easy to lose a destroyer or sub early due to the enemies micro, and then be totally unable to recover (especially if he gets the wreck).

Its an interesting map, but it lacks the dynamism of a lot of water maps where you start on land and have land metal. These maps have a wide choice of starting facs, and a lot of rapid switching of factory in order to suit the specific situation.

Most water maps work on a complicated system of counters: FHLTs and Corvettes beat destroyers and hovercraft, subs beat corvettes and FHLTs, torpedo launchers beat subs, destroyers and hovercraft beat torpedo launchers and are resistant/immune to subs. On the economic front, hovercraft and amphibs allow for expansion and raiding enemy economy, while hovercraft can do so aggressively and amphibs rely on stealth. An air player can easily get any features on the map, and can make rapid air-drops of the commander or other units for expansion. A ship player can counter all of these methods most easily (esp air) but has no way to expand himself, other than with metal maker econ/tidals or by walking his boy (which is pretty essential to any ship player, but can get risky esp due to subs).

I would probably at least seriously consider the following changes to the map:

A. Start on land, with a metal spot or two. Probably on the rough mountain bits, though a suitable area will need to be made. Make it relatively level with the ocean, large enough to fit a fac and some economy on, but small enough that a destroyer can hit its entire area from the shore. If he wants to be safe he will need to retreat into the hills (Perhaps put 1 'safe' mex up there, depending on how much you want to encourage that). Consider making 4 of these spots in each of the compass directions on the map, so that it can be played as a 2v2.

B. Put metal on the islands, probably one metal spot per island, in positions that are easily raided by corvettes. You may also want to lower the height of the islands so that hovercraft can traverse them more easily. Also put metal in the middle island, 2-3 metal spots, that are 'safe' for a hovercraft or amphib player in much the same way as the water spots are safe for a ship player. Make the middle island hovercraft-accessible (currently isnt), probably only 2-4 at specific points, so that a canny ship player can stop hovercraft coming down/going up by guarding these points.

C. Reduce the number of metal spots in the sea (probably so that it stays even with the ones that have been placed on land should be fine).

D. Optionally, add some features (mostly metal, trees are generally just annoying). Im generally against reclaim on maps, but its important on a map such as this to enhance the usefulness of an air start (Which would be good on this map, given the hills are a good place to sneak air units through), and to compensate for the high initial cost of ships, or of going 2 facs (to hover). Spread it out around ship-accessible, hovercraft-accessible, and amphib/air only areas. The total metal of the reclaimables should be about 1500-2500, with about 200-400 of that in the starting locations each (So just as a way to get the game going a little earlier).

Cheers for the feedback Saktoth, will incorporate it into the next version.

I make my land maps with the idea of incorporating as many different labs as possible, but for some reason made this entirely with ships in mind. I guess that's easy enough to rectify

editbump, see first post!

Excellent, i will play it ASAP! Though best to keep the old version around, its the only 1v1 pure sea map i know and shows off sea vs sea combat very well.

can we get a dry version also?

nice ambience.

u shoulda stole my palm trees for this update out of tumult

It'd be pretty bland as a dry map - the height map is basically flat expect for the middle and side hills. Also that sand texture is extremely ugly without water over it... I guess I could re-render it as grass and see how it turns out

ralphie wrote:It'd be pretty bland as a dry map - the height map is basically flat expect for the middle and side hills.

Thats the whole damn point of a 'dry' map.

Also that sand texture is extremely ugly without water over it... I guess I could re-render it as grass and see how it turns out

I like it.

I'd like that ralphie.

Well Saktoth im not sure he should make those changes you suggested.
You just want another sands of war.I dont think that should be the case...instead either leave the map as it is or make it bigger to suit t2 gameplay.Thing is we almost dont sea t2 come inot play at all.Thats a shame.You dont have to make small 1v1 maps..You can make them 14x16 as well maybe even bigger ..all lies with the metal map balance.
If you do a 1v1 big sea map you have to make sure its fast enough..
Ill give an example.Since big maps make the time it takes to get to the opponent bigger you must place metal spots in such an order as to draw the players as fast to each other as possible.Lest imagine a 16x16 1v1 map and make it totaly covered with water. If both players start in corners oposite one of the other than you make metal spots on that diagonal make much more metal that spots not on the diagonal that way people wont expand everywhere but mostly on the diagonal since it's spots are more lucrative.What im saying is that sea maps should take t2 in mind...t2 gameplay if its balanced already in ba is much more interesting since it hold more diversity..well gj on the map and keep making them :).


Oh,i guess im too late.Well,gj non the less looks great!

I wanted more land because gundam wouldn't play well on that.

DZHIBRISH wrote:Well Saktoth im not sure he should make those changes you suggested.

He already has. :D

You just want another sands of war.

Hell yes. Prettymuch the only balanced sea map. That being said the original vers of this map, though a little strange being nothing but sea (Hah! Now thats a niche!), is an excellent map and deserves merit on its own

I dont think that should be the case...instead either leave the map as it is or make it bigger to suit t2 gameplay.

T2 sea is broken beyond belief, and so expensive that you'd have a hard time getting it in a 1v1, or even a 2v2 (You'd go seaplanes first).

What im saying is that sea maps should take t2 in mind...t2 gameplay if its balanced already in ba is much more interesting since it hold more diversity..

There is less diversity at t2. At t2 you have the cruiser- this thing hits subs, can out-range almost every t1 static (barring guardian), murders hovers faster than a vette, outranges destroyers, and has HP up the wazzoo- all for a slightly larger cost than a destroyer. It is a game ender. The only other thing worth building is the adv sub, and t1 scout ships are better as AA than t2 AA ships. With that, all your bases are covered.

Nothing near the diversity of t1.

There is no 't2 game', t2 ends it- either he kill your colossal-waste-of-metal fac, or you spam cruisers and murder him. There is a small chance that he can seaplane you though, if you reclaimed your t1 fac and dont have sufficient AA (and since torp'ing rarely leaves wrecks, this means you are out 2000 something metal).

Saktoth wrote:T2 sea is broken beyond belief, and so expensive that you'd have a hard time getting it in a 1v1, or even a 2v2 (You'd go seaplanes first).

What im saying is that sea maps should take t2 in mind...t2 gameplay if its balanced already in ba is much more interesting since it hold more diversity..

There is less diversity at t2. At t2 you have the cruiser- this thing hits subs, can out-range almost every t1 static (barring guardian), murders hovers faster than a vette, outranges destroyers, and has HP up the wazzoo- all for a slightly larger cost than a destroyer. It is a game ender. The only other thing worth building is the adv sub, and t1 scout ships are better as AA than t2 AA ships. With that, all your bases are covered.

Nothing near the diversity of t1.

There is no 't2 game', t2 ends it- either he kill your colossal-waste-of-metal fac, or you spam cruisers and murder him. There is a small chance that he can seaplane you though, if you reclaimed your t1 fac and dont have sufficient AA (and since torp'ing rarely leaves wrecks, this means you are out 2000 something metal).

Well, on a larger map, T2 sea is a must or you will lose to the other dude's T2 sea. Noize is well aware of the balance issues with L2 sea after a few shore to shore games vs me. There is one counter to crusers, but you better get the factory with it too.

Well, on a larger map, T2 sea is a must or you will lose to the other dude's T2 sea.

Perfectly true, which is why sea shouldnt be played on larger maps. T2 sea is just much less interesting than the dynamic flow of balance and counters and large number of facs i described above.

There is one counter to crusers

Two counters- torpedo planes and adv subs. Even then a cruiser is not totally defenceless vs t2 subs and a t1 shipyard spamming patrol boats will make mincemeat of torpedo planes.