Spring RTS Engine

Does any one (maybe the original developers of XTA) have a spreadsheet (Excel file) with the stats of all XTA units and it's weapons?

I tryed mounting one but the file "ALLUNITS.XLS" has outdated stats and it would make me have to go search every single file. So this would save me alot of work...

Perl or PHP are ideal for this sort of thing. A perl script wrote the original ALLUNITS.xls, IIRC.

The info is in the gp3 file included in TA or XTA file. Maybe someone can extract it and put it on a site or in a file.

Redfish wrote:The info is in the gp3 file ...

??? I don't see any .gp3 file in TA::Spring...
It seems to me that the info in the .gp3 file in AA, is about the same as the info i can see in taenheter.ccx.

I already built a spreadsheet with some units of XTA. It seems at least fairly well balanced, although i saw some things that i really don't like...

maybe u could share it?

NOiZE wrote:maybe u could share it?

Well, i could but it is very crappy (and mostly in Portuguese)...
I shall make a better one when i have time for it and then, if i don't forget it, i'll try to upload it somewhere...

I was thinking, though, about making a SQL database for it, because in the units stats, we have some relationships. The units weapons is located in another table.

Any progress?
It would be nice to have as a reference when playing.

If you're looking for the GP3 file. The xta mod for OTA can be downloaded from the http://www.clan-sy.com page. under xta. :D

Delta wrote:Any progress?
...

Well, not really. I haven't even had the time to come here check the forums since last sunday.
That sunday i must have ate something bad that turned me into a walking pile of shit until thursday...

Yesterday, i had free time but i had to go make a revision of the sounds i made for the new Lincity game that is beeing made as a comunity project from Happypenguin.org and i don't expect to have oportunity to do it in a recent future... (the final project of my programing course is starting)

Delta wrote:...
It would be nice to have as a reference when playing.

It sure is!!!
But i can tell you some things (unless i managed to retreive wrong info about the units). The stats seem fairly well balanced but...

Brawlers and Rapiers have around 5 HPs per metal spent. That is almost the same as lvl-1 tanks... I think that might be too much. (but this is just a guess)

Weasels and Jeffys have >7 HPs per metal spent. Add that to they're >100 metal cost and we have a Weasel with more HP than a Flash...

Buldogs have 7,41 HPs per each metal spent. Goliaths have 7,2.
Buldogs deliver 105,56 HPs of dmg per second. Goliath 394. (Goliath cost as much as 3 Buldogs)
They seem balanced...
But they are not!
One Goliath smashes 3 Buldogs (make the test) leaving the fight with almost half of his HP.
And that is 1 Goliath! If we join 4 Goliaths, the concentration of power makes that unit even more overpowered. And in places like bridges (think Lava Highground), it becomes even more overpowered.

Also, Goliaths cost 4K metal. An annihilator costs 4K metal. Even if the Goliaths has to walk all the way under fire by the annihilator, it will still destroy the annihilator and walk away with more than half his life...
Defensive structures seem to be very weak. But that is a matter of style. It just makes the game more offensive.

This mod will most certainly not be kept forever and that's why i'm not greatly concerned about studying it right now, even if i had the time for it.

imo ppl should just switch to EVOTA...

exactly noize u tell em :) stupid evil xta

Agreed; notwithstanding the unit differences, the economy is a delicate thing, OTA had the most realistic and fair production/consumption stats.

Brawlers and Rapiers have around 5 HPs per metal spent. That is almost the same as lvl-1 tanks... I think that might be too much. (but this is just a guess)

This probably has to do with the fact that they can get shot down very easily when attacking buildings or units. To not make em completely useless.

Weasels and Jeffys have >7 HPs per metal spent. Add that to they're >100 metal cost and we have a Weasel with more HP than a Flash...
Yep you're right, however you're missing the point that a jeffy costs so much energy, that if you build one at the start of a level you'll get cramped severely. Also they have a weak weapon compared to a flash.

Buldogs have 7,41 HPs per each metal spent. Goliaths have 7,2.
Buldogs deliver 105,56 HPs of dmg per second. Goliath 394. (Goliath cost as much as 3 Buldogs)
They seem balanced...
But they are not!
One Goliath smashes 3 Buldogs (make the test) leaving the fight with almost half of his HP.
And that is 1 Goliath! If we join 4 Goliaths, the concentration of power makes that unit even more overpowered. And in places like bridges (think Lava Highground), it becomes even more overpowered.
Well, there also is a damage modifier that influences how damage is delivered to other units. Which also complicates matters more.

Also, Goliaths cost 4K metal. An annihilator costs 4K metal. Even if the Goliaths has to walk all the way under fire by the annihilator, it will still destroy the annihilator and walk away with more than half his life...
Defensive structures seem to be very weak. But that is a matter of style. It just makes the game more offensive.

Well actually making defenses efficient in XTA means adding dragon's teeth. These are not very effective in spring because of terrain deformation. Also defenses are not weak in XTA. in OTA they are useless. If you spend 4k metal on heavy laser towers they will eat your goliath, if they are DT-ed. If actually found playing xta too defensive.

This mod will most certainly not be kept forever and that's why i'm not greatly concerned about studying it right now, even if i had the time for it.
I agree, but maybe there will be a new spring version of the mod, who knows.

Redfish wrote:Weasels and Jeffys have >7 HPs per metal spent. Add that to they're >100 metal cost and we have a Weasel with more HP than a Flash...
Yep you're right, however you're missing the point that a jeffy costs so much energy, that if you build one at the start of a level you'll get cramped severely. Also they have a weak weapon compared to a flash.

What i was thinking of wrong about those units, was that in the vehicle factory, we no longer have scouts. The «scouts» are now just as expensive as other units (and generally as strong, of course).
So, if you want to build a weak, fast, cheap little unit to rush/annoy/etc the enemy, you no longer have that.
(everytime something get's changed, there's always the tendency to make them more powerfull...)

Redfish wrote:Buldogs ... Goliaths ...
Well, there also is a damage modifier that influences how damage is delivered to other units. Which also complicates matters more.

Damage modifier? What are you talking about?
But no matter what, about the Goliaths (vs Buldogs or any other units), tests clearly show that it it's overpowered. 3 Buldogs cost much more than a Goliath in Energy and in build time and a little more in Metal.

I don't know what you mean with that «damage modifier» thing but i know why the Goliath wins 3 Buldogs. It's because of it's concentration of power. After fighting for a while, the Goliath should have lost 1/3 of it's HP. And the Buldogs? They must have also lost 1/3 of they're total HP but that means that one of the Buldogs is gone. So from now on, the Buldogs only deliver 2/3 of they're initial damage. After a while, the second Buldog dies leaving just one Buldog shooting.
All this time, the Goliath functions at full power while the 3 Buldog army get's weaker with each loss. This is concentration of power.
Also, 3 buldogs deliver 316,68 dmg/second while the Goliath does 394. This also becomes important...

Of course there are other factors as the Goliath spending energy shooting but it also shoots farther, etc.

Redfish wrote:...
If you spend 4k metal on heavy laser towers they will eat your goliath, if they are DT-ed. ...

Maybe in OTA + XTA. But in TA::Spring, DTs don't actually make any diference. (at least when fighting against Goliaths)
I tried that. I putted Goliaths against the same amount of metal in Annihilator (1), Guardians (2), HLTs (5), ... for LLTs and MTs, i used other types of enemies.
Result: Goliath clearly wins them all. (well, i actually do not remember that well the outcome of fighting the 5 HLTs...)

5 Sentinel deliver 1075 dmg / second (215*5) and have 12300 HP (2460*5).
1 Goliath does 394 dmg/sec and has 28450 HP.

The Goliath should take 6,2 secs to take down the first HLT. By then, the HLTs should have taken 6.712 HP out of the Gol. (4 HLTs now doing 860 dmg)

Another 6,2 secs to take out another HLT. HLTs do 5.332 more dmg. (Gol now has 12.044 points of dmg) (3 HLTs now do 645 dmg/sec)

More 6,2 secs. (Gol now has 16.043 dmg) (2 HLTs= 430)
More 6,2 secs. (Gol now has 18.709 dmg) (1 HLT= 215)
More 6,2 secs and no HLT left and Goliaths should walk out with some 20.042 points of damage.

NOiZE wrote:imo ppl should just switch to EVOTA...

I will try to use what the original developers present as a standard to be used.
I hate when i connect to the battleroom and see 1/4 of people using EvOTA, 1/4 using XTA, 1/4 using AA and 1/4 using whatever_something_else...

hum goliath need 800 energy to fire. When 3 are firing, you need a good economie. And if the ennemi attak your base and destroy some one nuclear plant, it could be catastophic. At the cost, you need the add some more energy producter. Pitbull don't eat energy.

But I agree that goliath are a bit too strong. (but in ota, goliath are too weak)

Well the discussion makes it clear that currently XTA is not very balanced in spring. It should be redone completely. However there might also be a factor in that you're probably using the AI to fight you? So just position your gollie next to 3 bulldogs and give the bulldogs to the ai or the other way around? Maybe a real player would drive around, and for instance not have them standing around so they take the full bb shell damage. I don't know if you tested it this way. I'm not a unit maker, but the damage modifier kinda changes the way units take damage over time and area. Might be wrong here. So for instance the pure damage settings don't tell the entire story, but we'll have to wait for someone who knows exactly what it is to clear this.

I think XTA seems very balanced in TA, but not in spring. It is far more balanced than OTA in both.

I also trust that the SYs did all of that strenuous testing to make sure that XTA was balanced.

I do think that there should be a special version of it, specially callibrated for spring.

You plp are forgetting that goliahts and bulldogs arent the opistie of each other. Arm has the spider tank instead of the massive goliaths. To bad spidertanks are mostly useless since any k-bot unit can almost clime all that they can. If it could have a wepon who it could use terrain effiant (a distant wepon, since spiders die like... spiders in close combat!) and maybe something to make it even more tatical(ampihos spider on those almost vertical walls that are commenly used in metal maps?)

And sure the goliath is stronger, but it's slower and clumsyer. some fast dragon theet in the right places, and it's a big metal deposit. Arm must be strategiht in battle, since they are a litte weaker hp and less fire power, but faster and more mobile. the Goliath/spider is a clear example of that...

yeah mate but what happens when you face a 'dirty rusher' of a ARM like me who takes out ur econ pretty fast AND uses strategy/tactics (metal teeth strategically placed defenses flanks attacks base from all sides). i only play as ARM coz it makes it harder vs noobs (however i LOVE flashes and stumpies...just the name 'stumpy' :D) but if u r CORE rapiers fucking rape the shit out of your enemy if used right and the reapers are sooo cool and powerful not to forget 'Punishers'! luv em! but ARM are definately on the wrong side of this war... i mean have you ever played flooded desert...send the rapiers round the back of his base where his AA is lacking 5-10 will kill 40% odd of his econ even if he has sammies and thats not forgetting the damage u will do his production of effective counters by taking out his plants/ builders...CORE>ARM at least 90% of the time vs evenly matched players. btw everyone must play OTA it is godlike and XTA sucks
EDIT: wow i've turned a discussion bout spreadsheets into a rant bout OTA>XTA AND managed to include the olde CORE>ARM... bowdown to me! :D