Spring RTS Engine

While mods are definite awsome, several mods using the same units is a serious no-no. I think, once we pick a mod for balancing OTA, we need to leave it there, and ditch every other such mod. Here's why;

Imagine you have never played OTA or Spring before, or you have played OTA just a bit. So you play our default mod, work out the balance, strategies etc. Then there is a game hosting with the mod Uberhack for example. You play it, notice it has the same units, and assume it is the same.

You play assuming it is the same, and then wonder why your goliath was crushed by a sea of level 1 units. The point I am making, is that if this happened to me, i'd just be like "okay, this game sucks" and never play it again.

We NEED a default TA mod.

We also need to have as many other TA mods, which are the original mods units plus a large amount of other units, and balanced to fit with the default mod.

Now, there is something important to remember here; we don't balance the original mod's units - they have to stay exactly the same. Rather, we conform the added units. That way the game isn't wrecked when we go from one to another.

The original mod, apart from some minor balancing to make it fit with Spring during these early stages of development, cannot change. Likewise, the shared units by the 2nd mod cannot change, however the new units will change from version to version.

So we can still design units for addition into the TA heirarchy, but THEY have to conform.

This means that if, for example, we use UberHack as the default mod, then AA is easy to implement, but another TA mod will have to be completely rebalanced. This cannot be avoided, and must be tolerated.

If you want to make a mod that doesn't fit with the balance of the original unit mod we choose, then suffer, make a TC (which we need a few of at least, might I add)

I personally really like XTA. I also like UberHack. Haven't tried the rest, but just between those two, we have tough competition. If we choose UberHack, then AA fits nicely as a mod containing nothing but additional units.

On the other hand, XTA has more strategy (people will flame me here, but its true. I have only been playing XTA for the last week or two, but despite how much I hated it at first, it has grudgingly gained my respect)

All this will be hard to take in, that most TA mods are going to have to be discarded.
But, if you imagine we have that cool mod sharing feature that they will hopefully implement soon, like Warcraft III, then the mods are going to get out of hand. Its a fact, not an opinion.

But there is light at the end of the tunnel. Imagine a game where you can choose to play a variety of TA's, WWII games, or other sweet TC mods, like fantasy or mech ones.

If you choose to play a TA mod, there about 225 base units that are fixed, and you can pick one of several mods which takes that figure up to about 500. That would be fun, because you can use your prior knowledge of TASpring, and also enjoy a while host of new units you have never used before.

These mods could include more tech levels, more units, more types of units, whatever, as long as they leave the original unts intact.

I personally think XTA should be the default, although it needs a few tweaks, like getting rid of that stupid mobile fusion, whose idea was that? I get its strategic purpose, but it should be a nuclear fission power plant built by the construction vehicle or kbot or whatever.

Anyway, my point is we need one basic TA, and if you want to change any of these basic units in your mod of TA, you have to make a TC and a whole new game. It only makes sense.

I agree that it's bad that several mods use OTA units with stats changed. I have no problem with new races or Total Conversion but I dislike "rebalancing mods" for the reason you mentionned. The default mod would of course be OTA.

then why did you vote no...?

Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaad idea. I like AA, which happens to be a "rebalancing mod", and if you want to prevent people playing AA and other "rebalancing mods" becuase some noob might bet confused, then you are f***ed in the head.

Doomweaver wrote:...
I personally think XTA should be the default, although it needs a few tweaks, like getting rid of that stupid mobile fusion, whose idea was that? ...

The mobile fusion, as far as i know, was created to close the gap we have between the solars/winds/tidals into nuclear power plants.
It goes from 145M/20E to 5000M/1000E. Huge gap.
And maybe also to bring more value to the Adv Vehicle Plant...?
Funny thing is that the roles of the 2 nuclear power plants have somewhat changed. The cloackable is still the standard 5000M/1000E power plant but the other one, has been upgraded into a much more expensive one so that in late games we don't need «fields» of nuclear power plants.
Now, i think that this upgraded power plant is way too much and as such, it could be the standard 5000M/1000E, having the cloackable downgraded into closing that gap.
Also, since the mobile fusion is a very ugly vehicle, i wouldn't really miss it.

Other changes i wouldn't mind seeing in XTA would be to see the tech tree of the factories arranged. I liked the strategic limitation that when you started with, for example, a vehicle factory, you wouldn't be able to easily build an Adv Airplane Factory.
I know that it sucks to have to search the whole map for that one single constructor that is able to build a specific factory but i think that if all builders build all lvl-1 factories and it's specific lvl-2 factory, it would be good. That way, only access to lvl-2 factories would be restricted.

If only the developers gave some feedback on what they are planning about this or on what they are hoping it will be made...

I hate to say it, but many of you idiots don't listen. My opinion is that XTA is good, not that it should be the default mod. Anyone who voted 'no' because they hate XTA are dickheads, or else need to read posts properly.

Anyone who votes no also needs to give another alternative, because if you want to keepall all those rebalances of the ota units AND not have people trying out TASpring just decide it is crap, then you can't just say 'it will just work' because it won't. If you disagree with me that's good, but only if you have actually given thought to the issue and not just ignored it.

Forgive my language but it was necessary to express what i'm feeling right now.

Oh yeah, and Napalm the reason i mentioned uberhack is because AA is based on it. That's why if we choose uberhack, then AA doesn't need much, or any rebalancing.

I don't care which mod you pic, its still a bad idea, different people have different tastes in their gameplay.

1. XTA is already the default mod so what are you going on about?
2. TA Spring is open source software; it would be against the spirit of OSS to make it comform to one mod.
3. I find XTA much easier and much more fun than evOTA and AA. The important thing is there's nothing so bad about XTA that it isn't a good starter mod. Noobs won't be able to appreciate the minor differences between mods anyway.

.
I'm no expert on this mod issue. I figure I'll put my 2 cents
in on this subject. SpringTA should be by default played in
XTA. When the next release of SpringTA, they should add OTA
patch to the release. They need to have a check box that
can be select during the game. The one hosting the game
can select if its a XTA or a OTA game. This setting should
be display in the battle room.

On the other issue of mods, like AA mod ... or any other
mod. They should be treated as a addon. Don't mess with
any of the XTA stuff or the OTA stuff. Let say ... they should
be call all level 3 building and level 3 units. What I'm saying
is that a mod should be adding only extra units and structures.

That's my opinion on this subject...
.

I want my OTA back as default! Let the players choose if they want XTA, AA, UTASP, TAUCP, ETC.

you guys are missing the point. Let me speak from the perspective of someone who has never played OTA or Spring; "Wow, last game these were good, now they suck. This game is shit." Point proven, we can't just have any old mod being played as the basis for others, we need one base.

I want evota- OTA balance (WOOT!!!) with cool looking units (:D) espiecially flashes (:))

do you think we should have OTA with the most minimal of changes, or just good old plain OTA? (Also, I assume we can use EvOTA models with any TA mod)

Doomweaver wrote:you guys are missing the point. Let me speak from the perspective of someone who has never played OTA or Spring; "Wow, last game these were good, now they suck. This game is shit." Point proven, we can't just have any old mod being played as the basis for others, we need one base.

The neeb will not search for new mod, he will play xta because it's the one wich is shipped with the game, no?

Even if he download a mod, the man who install a new mod and are asking why the game is not the same is really an idiot. (and personnaly, I don't care if he stop playing the game).

Making good readme wich explain what is this file for _each_ files realased is a plus. (Sometimes I download files and don't know really what they do)

He or she will play XTA, then play another. And then think, okay this is completely different. Catalyct said "Noobs won't be able to appreciate the minor differences between mods anyway." There is are no subtle differences between XTA and OTA, for example. In one a goliath wins the game, in the other several flashes will teach it to mess with the mighty ARM. I'm not saying this is bad, just that the variation will suck.

I think you guys need to think outside the limitations of conforming to one mod and think about the possibilities; if we have one basic mod, then you can play it, then go to a drastically different mod, like one with 4x the units for each teams and six different teams, and still have some familiarity.

I know that people enjoy completely different play styles; so do I. But that, I think, is for total conversions. We need one base which we can identify as Total Annhilation.

If we want Spring to sweep the world, it needs to be user friendly. I know the attittude here is very much 'if you are too dumb to be able tell which mod is being played, then go home, we don't want you', but i'm telling you that that is exactly the attittude that has (up until the past year or two) killed linux.

It's just not fun playing with the same looking units that behave completely differently. Most people, except programmers and people really into computers, have very visually based memories. If a game looks the same but behaves completely differently, it will not be taken well.

Many people worlwide have played total annihilation. They still have faint memory of what units rock, what unit are usless, that HLT are close ranged, that Guardian are built by level 1 cons, etc... That's why OTA must be the default mod. So people who are used to TA can play Spring and says "Wow, it's exactly the same, but in gorgeous 3D!" instead of saying "Meh, balance has been turn upside down, I can't play that!"

i vote for OTA withOUT the evolva units..

zwzsg wrote:So people who are used to TA can play Spring and says "Wow, it's exactly the same, but in gorgeous 3D!"

I agree 100%.
But what about the licence ? AFAIK, atari now owns the TA licence.
I think it would be better to give the engine naked, with scripts (batch...) to auto-install the official campaigns (maybe plus non-Spring-aware mods) - or maybe only HOWTOs.

As I'm noob to Spring, how are the different mods handled ? I find the way TA handles them really poor - and the job done by TA-M is good but should be avoided if the mod support is redesigned.
Is it UT-like (a directory for each kind of file : textures, meshes, map,...) or GhostRecon-like (a directory for all the datafiles from an addon, all with the same subtree structure), or maybe something else ?

[EDIT]It seems that "TAS....g" is not liked much around here... Removed. Sadly, it's still what the URL reads.[/EDIT]

TA != Spring

The engine will FAR exceed TA in due time. It's just nice that it uses TA units right now.

Once V3 is done and implimented, the separation will finally be complete. Units can be designed for Spring and only Spring, at that time. Higher poly count, better textures, maybe even new scripting options. All in due time.

But for now, do NOT say "TA Spring" because it isn't TA, it's Spring.

</rant>