Spring RTS Engine

Noruas wrote:Samsons and Slashers are not AA!!! they have tracking weapons convenient for both but thats it.

nah, they are AA, the dual tracking was added later because inconsistent AA/ground interaction is fun

No.
Was added cause VEHICLES RULE,YEAAAH!!!

Gota wrote:No.
Was added cause VEHICLES RULE,YEAAAH!!!

This also explains their insanely massive sight range.

But yeah, bladewings are difficult to balance because they can be hard to mirco, so they often seem up/op in certain scenarios.

Its not that hard to balance. Bladewings are fine


Btw I think itd be cool if bot aa had samsons los too. Itd give the unit more diverse purpose, it could be moderately useful even if enemy didnt have air. More cool positioning micro for bots

Isn't it already amphibious?

Some other imbalances...:

Rector VS Fark
Total cost: 125 | 248 - For the cost of 1 Fark u can get 2 Rectors.
Buildtime: 2400 | 4302 - U can also almost build 2 Rectors in the time u build 1 Fark.
Workertime 200 | 120

Both are usually spammed with ur regular army (i.e. when spamming zeus: 5 zeus/1 aa/1 radar/1 jammer/1 fark) - mostly to reclaim wreckage or repair damaged units.

Farks CAN be used to assist buildings. But even at this role they are worse than the Freaker (Freaker compared to Fark: about 30% more buildtime, costs 4 m more, workertime 150, 550 hp more, can build useful buildings, faster movement speed).

Ok, so freaker is core and farks are arm - looks like theyr still the best unit for a arm player who wants some mobile nano assistance for his t2 con, right? nope. Theyr trumphed by the mere t1 kbot con. 2 t1 kbot cons cost 6 m more but have 60 workertime more (2 x 90= 180). The only things theyr beat the t1 cons at are buildtime and speed - but guess what, they dont need to be fast, because the t2 con they are helping isnt fast either.

For field reclaiming they suck too.
2 rezbots for the same cost and buildtime will reclaim & repair 3,3x as fast as a fark. And they are radar stealthy. And they can ressurect.

Conclusion: Make Farks cheaper or give them better workertime.


Next up: The Banisher
Banisher vs Penetrator vs 3 Morty's
DPS: 133 | 454 | 197
Single-shot damage: 1000 | 2500 | 105
Health: 2250 | 2500 | 2550
Cost: 1284 | 1337 | 1218
Buildtime: 23129 | 25706 | 15417
Range: 800 | 950 | 850
Movement speed: 1.9 | 1.5 | 2.15

Its easy to see how the other long ranged units are superiour to the banisher. Penetrators will pretty much always kill Banishers, due to higher range and the fact that they only need to hit twice to kill a Banisher (or even only once - if the banisher is even just slightly damaged from previous battles) - the Banisher needs to hit 3 times to kill. Only looking at reloadtimes (Banisher 7.5 sec, Penetrator 5.5 sec) already tells us that in the time it takes a Banisher to fire 3 missiles (22,5 secounds) a Penetrator will get to fire 4 times (22 secounds).

Add in the fact that the Penetrator gets to fire alot earlier (its got 150 more range) and a Penetrator might very well get off 5 shots in the time a Banisher fires 3 missiles.

Banisher vs Morty is a different deal... in a straight-up fight the Banisher at least got a chance, due to the AOE from his missile. A tightly grouped bunch of mortys could actually be killed in a single hit.

However, vs anything else the Mortys are massively superior.
They dont just have higher maximum speed, they accelerate faster too - and they can shoot at enemys while running away while Banishers can not fire at targets straight behind them.
You can run away in a diagional line from your target, but that makes them even slower at running away than they already are.
Also, mortys can climb hills and they have over 25% less buildtime per cost.

2 Banisher vs 3 Sharpshooter
DPS: 267 | 750
Single-shot damage 1000 | 2500 (no laser damage falloff)
Health: 4500 | 1560
Cost: 2568 | 2340
Buildtime: 46258 | 57411
Range: 800 | 900
Movement speed: 1.9 | 1.26

In a fight Banishers vs Sharpshooters, theres no contest.
With 100 range more they get to fire earlier, and a single Sharpshooter hit kills a Banisher. Even if one of the Sharpshooters misses they still kill the Banishers before even getting into range.

Sharpshooters are cheaper, but they have more buildtime and less health, at least if we build sharpshooters for the same cost. However, if we only build 2 and have some way of eliminating radar wobble (t-facs, LOS from radar bot) the sharpshooters also win in buildtime.

One thing that is supposed to be a advantage of the Banisher but more often than not is a disadvantage, is the Area of Damage of theyr missiles. At 128 its just big enough to make them suicide when they get rushed by scouts but not big enough to have a practical impact on most units theyr fighting (bulldogs and t3 don't give a hoot about ur AOE!).
Penetrators, Mortys and Sharpshooters will also be bothered by scouts, but at least they wont suicide when they get scoutrushed.

Conclusion: Banishers are definitely the worst of the long-ranged combatants. I'd suggest improving damage (maybe 1,5k dmg per missile). Another solution could be improving AOE. They'll suicide even harder when scoutrushed, but at least then it will have a practical use in combat.) Im more in favor of improving missile damage though.

Zonk wrote: Conclusion: Banishers are definitely the worst of the long-ranged combatants.

Strange cause I consider them the best ^_^

Im afraid that you left out way too many factors in there, comparing stats like that is just bs

And even if your conclusion was right you gave no reason why those units should have strictly equal usefulness.

Yeah,units should be more OR less useful for their cost at random...cause that way it all magically evens out at the end.

Gota wrote:Yeah,units should be more OR less useful for their cost at random...cause that way it all magically evens out at the end.

Theres nothing magical about it. Units dont need to be equal and they cant be (think of flash/gator for great example). As long as every unit would be useful in some situation, and the sides are balanced everything is fine.

When you change unit stats, you shouldnt think how useful that unit is, but how it changes the way people should play.

JAZCASH wrote:

Zonk wrote: Conclusion: Banishers are definitely the worst of the long-ranged combatants.

Strange cause I consider them the best ^_^

Reasons?
Also, I'm surprised you even have a opinion about Banishers, 99% of the time I see u playing Arm (stumpeeeeh!).

JohannesH wrote:Im afraid that you left out way too many factors in there, comparing stats like that is just bs

Wich factors exactly? I have included a good deal more than just stats. So go into some detail plz.

JohannesH wrote:And even if your conclusion was right you gave no reason why those units should have strictly equal usefulness.

Well, it sucks if some units are simply inferiour to others in all given situations, no?

So tell me what in what situations Banishers are the best unit in the game - if you can think of any.

Banishers are built from core t2 veh factory, you can build none of those other units you described from there (!!)
Banishers shoot air
Banishers arent fucking slow like penes and snipers, penes cant even fire full 360 degrees
M/E cost ratio of units matter alot
Banishers are the only 1 unit with noticable AoE of the units you mentioned
Banisher missile is tracking
Banishers dont need e to fire

Yes you mentioned that but those are some reasons why banishers kick ass. Banisher is very very useful and theres no way around it, ask any good player. If you compare it to morty it is worse in many ways but morty is ridiculously good, which doesnt really detract from banisher usefulness at all.


Unit vs unit comparison is retarded

Zonk wrote: Reasons?

They do a fair amount of damage, they have an alright range, they shoot at air and they're reasonable fast compared to most other long ranged units. They're great units to rush, one or two can completely wipe out a porc line.

Also, a lot of long ranged units like Snipers and penetrators require E to fire, Banishers don't.

Their best use is when you have a nice bunch of them and you line them all up. You can just sweep across the map which just looks pwnage.

Don't judge a unit solely by it's stats. Also remember, each and every unit is good for something so don't compare units in the same way. It's impossible to mathematically take all their stats into account to judge "The best unit" as there are too many factors which tip the balance.

Zonk wrote: Also, I'm surprised you even have a opinion about Banishers, 99% of the time I see u playing Arm (stumpeeeeh!).

You obviously don't play very much then. I play Core a lot more than I do Arm these days. I used to switch alternately every game but I've found a love for Core recently <3 Either way, I've been playing BA game long enough to have an opinion about each and every unit.


Edit: Just saw Johan pretty much justified a few of my points in the above post.


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Conclusion: New players shouldn't be allowed to make judgements.

banishers are one of my favourite units

i dont think they are all that great by themselves, but in groups and mixed with "filler" units to protect them (reapers, t1 tanks etc) they are nearly unstoppable in many situations

penetrators are okay, but they take so bloody long to fire and so long to turn that they can be closed down and smashed easily by light units wheras the banisher stands a bit more of a chance; generally gets two shots off before it gets swarmed/killed by scouts

im not sure if its worth comparing morty with banisher; if you're "obeying" TA conventions you'll be building vehicles on the flat and kbots on the hills, its unlikely that these two units will actually fight head to head

i find the penetrator to be pretty useless in most situations; i suppose it's all opinion, but i think pene is only good for shooting at static defenses, and given the choice i would always build a bertha or a tacnuke before i bothered with spending the equivalent on penes

not to mention a group of banishers can beat the crap out of swarms of slow moving planes like gunships

JohannesH wrote:Banishers are built from core t2 veh factory, you can build none of those other units you described from there (!!)

Correct, but they should fill a niche of theyr own - and not just be the unit that u build cuz theres no other option.

Look at Janus and Leveler. Janus rocks for hit and run vs all kinds of stuff and does ok vs kbots. Leveler rocks vs kbots and does ok at... well, not so much hit and run but waltzing over defenses. To me thats a prime example of 2 units with similar roles but wich excel at different stuff.

JohannesH wrote:Banishers shoot air

But theyr too bad at it to be useful at this job. One 1k damage missile every 7.5 secounds means they get pwnt by pretty much anything with wings. Still needs mobile (dedicated) AA.

JohannesH wrote:Banishers arent fucking slow like penes and snipers, penes cant even fire full 360 degrees

Perhaps you should have read my post more closely - Penetrators got 1.5 speed, Banishers got 1.9 - thats a difference of less than 25%. And Banishers can't fire full 360 degrees either.

JohannesH wrote:M/E cost ratio of units matter alot

Correct, but the stage of the game matters too.
Early on you have less E - during that time its good if E costs of a unit are small.
Later on you have lots of E - its nice if the E costs are massive and the M costs are small during that stage. Means you'll have to make less MMM.

Just look at the Panther, wich got alot better due to its reduced E cost - it means u can spam Panthers earlier, without fus.

JohannesH wrote:Banishers are the only 1 unit with noticable AoE of the units you mentioned

Whats noticeable and whats not is ultimately subjective ofc - but to me it makes no difference, as I've mentioned before - most units theyr meant to fight wont take much damage from AOE. (t2 tanks and t3 don' care about ur AOE ...as I've mentioned before.) Most of the units that will be bothered by AOE golli will be alot better against.

JohannesH wrote:Banisher missile is tracking

And Penetrators Tachyon is so fast it doesn't need to be tracking - its a laser. Sharpshooters projectiles are even faster.
Mortys plasma is still fast enough most of the time but ocassionally it misses. So no real advantage here for Banishers.

Thats the whole reason why ive included those other 3. Theyr all similar in this way - units that are decent for cracking porc, but unlike normal plasma and rocket artillery they don't do too bad vs mobile units. Its why I didn't bother to include Diplomat, Merl, Dominator, Tremor, Luger and Pillager in this comparison.

JohannesH wrote:Banishers dont need e to fire

Thats nice, but really only a minor advantage unless ur e-stalling. And you should never e-stall.

JohannesH wrote:Unit vs unit comparison is retarded

Then tell me in what situations banisher does better than the other long-ranged units ive mentioned.

JAZCASH wrote: They do a fair amount of damage, they have an alright range, they shoot at air and they're reasonable fast compared to most other long ranged units. They're great units to rush, one or two can completely wipe out a porc line.

Theyr range is alright, theyr dps is pitful compared to most other units. The other stuff ive already covered in the reply to JH. And ive never seen one or two banishers wipe out a porc line.
They need to fire 3 missiles for a HLT, more if it gets repaired or they don't hit it properly due to radar wobble. Thats at least 22,5 secounds per HLT. A big porcline will have multiple HLT, HLLT/Beamers, LLTs. Soften it up? Yeah. Wipe it out with any decent speed? Hardly.

A Penetrator can take out a HLT in 2 shots and only needs 11 secounds per HLT. It also only needs 1 shot per Beamer/HLLT, while Banisher needs 2, wich means a even more noticeable difference (per Beamer/HLLT: 5,5 secounds vs 15 secounds) --> Penetrator does it faster, from further away.

JAZCASH wrote:Their best use is when you have a nice bunch of them and you line them all up. You can just sweep across the map which just looks pwnage.

Thats the best use for pretty much any artillery-like unit. I've seen it happen and done it with both - banishers and penetrators. The biggest difference was that penetrators dealt with the porclines a whole lot faster due to theyr higher range and DPS and got pwned alot less by weasels.

JAZCASH wrote:Don't judge a unit solely by it's stats. Also remember, each and every unit is good for something so don't compare units in the same way. It's impossible to mathematically take all their stats into account to judge "The best unit" as there are too many factors which tip the balance.

No worries, I dont... regarding the bolded part: I wish it were that way... Fido anyone? I can not imagine a realistic situation were, given the choice between the 4, I'd prefer Banishers over Penetrators, Mortys and Snipers.

JAZCASH wrote:You obviously don't play very much then. I play Core a lot more than I do Arm these days. I used to switch alternately every game but I've found a love for Core recently <3 Either way, I've been playing BA game long enough to have an opinion about each and every unit.

Now seriously, Jazz... ur well known as a stumpy lover. Telling someone who associates ur name with stumpy that he "obviously doesnt play very much then" is just plain silly.

JAZCASH wrote:Conclusion: New players shouldn't be allowed to make judgements.

Hurr hurr hurr.

KaiserJ wrote:im not sure if its worth comparing morty with banisher; if you're "obeying" TA conventions you'll be building vehicles on the flat and kbots on the hills, its unlikely that these two units will actually fight head to head

Yeah, if we obey the TA conventions then that'd be rare... but Mortys and Snipers pwn so hard that they get used on flat ground all of the time.
Especially Mortys. Most people agree that at t2 kbots become the stronger choice (though there are still some nice t2 veh options).
In DSD games a techer who starts spamming Mortys can very often roll up the south front with ease.

(Noone start giving lectures on "first priority of techer should be fighterscreen/bombing!" plz - sometimes land simply presents a bigger treat. Sometimes u have another techer whos making air. Etc.)

You're making yourself look like such an idiot now so I'm going to have to assume you're a troll. Kthnxbai.

Penetrators cannot fire while retreating. This makes them incredibly weak in some scenarios, especially when the enemy spams a lot of small units (think A.K. spam).

if you dont like playing with obtuse and largely inferior units,

dont play core.

Mav wrote:Penetrators cannot fire while retreating. This makes them incredibly weak in some scenarios, especially when the enemy spams a lot of small units (think A.K. spam).

Meanwhile, banishers actually can move at a moderate speed, so they can do a fighting retreat against assault units very well. Plus they can fire at air. In general, if you're doing a pure assault or sitzkrieg, penes are better. If you have a mobile force, banishers are better.

As for the Fark, remember that the reverse is unfair too - the Arm answer to the Freaker, the Consul, lets Arm reach across into T2 Arm Kbots. They get part of the T2 Kbot lab bundled in their T2 Veh lab thanks to that unit.

Also, while T1 conbots have a lot of nano-per-cost, they're so terrible in every other respect (chain-explodey, short-ranged, slow open-close, slow moving) that they're barely useable as a massed nanospam. Nanotowers just work better for base-building - sure, nanotowers are immobile, but those T1 conbots are barely mobile themselves. For working in the field, convehs or engineers are worth the slight hit on nano-per-cost. You aren't saving time anyways waiting for those slow-assed bots to get there.

Pxtl wrote:

Mav wrote:Penetrators cannot fire while retreating. This makes them incredibly weak in some scenarios, especially when the enemy spams a lot of small units (think A.K. spam).

Meanwhile, banishers actually can move at a moderate speed, so they can do a fighting retreat against assault units very well. Plus they can fire at air. In general, if you're doing a pure assault or sitzkrieg, penes are better. If you have a mobile force, banishers are better.

My point exactly.