Spring RTS Engine

Tired wrote: Sleksa, my mod is balanced. Yours is not.

Im not a modmaker and i have nothing to do with the developement of any mod in spring.

And your mod might be balanced , as i dont know the correct meaning for this term like you do, so i cant argue wheter it is or isnt balanced, but its dull and unsatisfying compared to BA.

Balance is subjective.

The creators call it balanced annihilation because they are striving for the balance that they want.

Balanced annihilation's objectives yet again are to pick up from aa 2.23 "op wezel" version, and bring back the gameplay of AA as WarC once knew it. The term balance thus refers to bring back AA from the wezel spam into "normal aa" gameplay.

Sleksa, my mod is balanced. Yours is not. This was defined by simple values. How can you all use the word "balance" as though it's some magical cureall that defines all elements of gameplay when it's not? The word simply doesn't mean what you think it does. Other people who speak English should've corrected the rest of you by now, but no one has, which is a fault of English words often having multiple meanings. In this case, it has but one.

For me the term balance means a units usefulness in correlation to other units. your flash - to - sumo metal cost ratio explanation, like you said is "balanced" because the same metal amounts invested in the sumo and flash are equal, and they both posess equal power to match eachother.



But what im saying, is that there are too many variables that you cannot take into account, and most of these come from the players involved. A players apm is not set. It varies between the users, player a might have 60 apm, whereas player b might have 260 apm. How can you predict and evaluate something such as this? Or where and how he will focus on or how will he play.

So making a "balanced" game, that involves different human players is impossible.

Tired wrote:40% slower turning rate is worth 20% overall unit cost. There - I just gave a set value.

If that were so, a unit that turns instantly should be infinitely expensive.

However, this is clearly not the case. Even if it insta-turned, a stumpy wouldn't be better than a krog.

What Sleska and I asked was not if you could give us senseless random number out of your hat, but number and formula that measure that tell how to balance unit properties. Typing bullshit figures is very easy,
4 8 15 16 23 42
9 249 17 2 157 116 227 91 216 65 86 197 99 86 136 192
Complimentary number: 42
But none of them has any relevance to balancing.

Tired, your mod is not balanced. Mine is! (I have no mod, but who cares at this point of bullshittery. I just wanted to show that when you refuse to use any form of sensible argumentation and proofing, anything can be said, but that does not necessarly make it true.). Balancing can't be done by number alones, and especially not by simple ones.

You cannot give set values for these things. Duh.

Actually, you can model it, if you're able to rationalize the process for reducing all complex variables to a single set variable. It can be representative if not exactingly precise.

Of course, none of this matters because you're all defining "balance" in subtly different manners, even among those of you who disagree categorically with Tired. Tired is interpreting balance in the context of game design as analogous to balance in simple mathematics. This is borne out by his example of accounting balance.

Tired wrote:This is the wrong answer, Zpock.

The purpose of accounting is to create a zero sum balance between Assets + Liabilities and Equity. You select tax payment options as part of accounting, but that's not the purpose of it - just an ends to a means. You do not use accounting to "keep track of what your company is doing" in the kind of vague sense by which you define it.

All that accounting does is make sure that money doesn't disappear - that no one's withdrawing cash and not spending it on anything; fraud. All accounting does is make sure that you don't think that you have a fortune built up in your company that you can withdraw and spend when you have a huge number of unpaid debts. Accounting is not creative - it's just dull as dishwater book keeping. Accounting is nothing but balance.

lol

TEK 2 SMOTH!

smoth wrote:TEK 2 SMOTH!

that picture implies that your head and that little girl's leg is heavier than the girl's upper body and 3 gators!

Tired wrote: For a balanced equation, I could say that speed was worth 10x as much as Health. As such, it would take many times - perhaps 5x - as much metal invested in Flash Tanks as invested in a Sumo to kill a Sumo. In BA, that would equate to something like 10,000 metal in Flash Tanks. This would be balanced.

I could say that range was worth only 2% as much as dps, and redesign a Flea that could fire from one corner of a 16x16 map to an opposing corner and cost 200 metal without changing any other basic unit stats. This would be balanced.

I could say that airplanes should cost 57x as much as comparable ground units, put wings on a Stumpy, and send 11,400 metal PteroStumps to their doom against normally priced Slashers. Would this PteroStump be effective? No. Would it be balanced? Yes.

Conclusion: Balance is meaningless and worthless.

So in other words Tired's definition of balance is whatever he can fit into his formula. Nice but gets you nowhere because the problem balancing is trying to solve is making sure that every option the player should have is a viable option.