Spring RTS Engine

Saktoth wrote:Bombers dont hit air. o_O (this is a lie, they do, tell a pheonix to attack an enemy bomber. lulz).

Hehe - yeah...

But besides: As Bombers regularly are used as raiders to kill a few specific targets I think this isn't so much of an argument because if you have so much air dominance that your bombers can fly multiple attacks you might be better of with gunships (except when you are Core on T1 )...

Saktoth wrote:No, really, a fighter screen is quite good vs a few flash getting through, stops jeffies entirely, spots and kills spies, etc.

Maybe but two Samsons will kill multiple times of their costs then and as they are pretty much always used on T1 your T1 shield makes not much sense...

Saktoth wrote:t1 fighters arent as bad as you make them out to be (certainly not 10x!). Their major disparity is vs t2 bombers and t2 fighters.

They just are bad in comparison as they pretty much only do 1/10 of the Hawk T2 damage (on bombers) what is something I can't understand. Why this artifical degradation (it's less than 50% they do on T1 bombers) - it makes no sense imo. Why then don't defenders, Samsons, Jethros etc. also deal less damage on em?

I mean why cripple the long term usability of a unit which even isn't really effective on T1 as it can be killed pretty easy when being used as a fighter shield (that's way more easy to do for your T2 fighters as on T2 your ground units have far better range to keep flakkers on distance)...

stop crying.

its fine

l2p

Speaking of planes...

Has the air repair pad gotten any sort of use in any game you've played recently? The way BA is designed, most things that kill planes seem to kill them very quickly - with the exception of things like the Krow. So is the air repair pad really just the Krow repair pad?

yup
Play CA if you want a fair game.
quit bitching here, nothing will ever happen to actually improve BA anymore.

YokoZar wrote:Speaking of planes...

Has the air repair pad gotten any sort of use in any game you've played recently? The way BA is designed, most things that kill planes seem to kill them very quickly - with the exception of things like the Krow. So is the air repair pad really just the Krow repair pad?

i think its mostly harmful because bombers/gunships might turn back from a critical run.

the only good use for repair pads is to act as a support for a t2 hawk-airscreen and keeping it alive against the occasional pack0/defender that's on your patrol path since planes do require quite a lot of nanopower to get built, wasting them is not a good idea.

MR.D wrote:yup
Play CA if you want a fair game.
quit bitching here, nothing will ever happen to actually improve BA anymore.

Comments like that don't bring positive results for any mod. And are far more likely to drive people away from CA since apparently the only other people playing it are snobs and slanderers.

(Note that I do play CA myself, and I'm not saying that we are snobs and slanderers, but your comment makes it look like it.)

Sleksa wrote:

YokoZar wrote:Speaking of planes...

Has the air repair pad gotten any sort of use in any game you've played recently? The way BA is designed, most things that kill planes seem to kill them very quickly - with the exception of things like the Krow. So is the air repair pad really just the Krow repair pad?

i think its mostly harmful because bombers/gunships might turn back from a critical run.

the only good use for repair pads is to act as a support for a t2 hawk-airscreen and keeping it alive against the occasional pack0/defender that's on your patrol path since planes do require quite a lot of nanopower to get built, wasting them is not a good idea.

I wonder if the air repair pad might get more use if the AA weapons in the game were less one-hit kill type weapons.

Suppose, for instance, we triple the fire rate while dividing the damage by 3 of the flakker. What would happen?

YokoZar wrote: Suppose, for instance, we triple the fire rate while dividing the damage by 3 of the flakker. What would happen?

Gunships will run away from every flakker you put down. other than that i see no difference since the flaks already have quite a fast fire rate.


also if you have any more bright ideas. Go make a mutator and test it, or go talk with ca devs about implementing this change to promote your ideas more.

This is the wrong place to voice out your new ideas, ba is not going to incorporate your new ideas.

Since the TBFITW ba section there have been suggestions like laser walls, t4 mexes, a conkbot that is a vehicle and a minelayer and a builder and can make radars (this is the best suggestion i've ever heard), and none of these have gotten in. What makes your suggestions any way better than these?

Yoko, that wouldnt do what you desire. To make air repair pads useful you'd need to totally re-do air, so that they can survive for more than 1 run (Which also means they'd need to do piss more damage to make up for it).

At the moment almost every run is a suicide run, and the enemies AA is usually on his front line. If you get past his front line, you want to keepl bombing until you crash into the ground- you dont want to turn around and go back through it.

You'd need to totally change that dynamic to make repair pads useful. BA wont be doing this any time soon.

Comments like that don't bring positive results for any mod. And are far more likely to drive people away from CA since apparently the only other people playing it are snobs and slanderers.

go talk with ca devs about implementing this change to promote your ideas more.

Lol sleks a CA snob. Its mostly BA players saying 'Go play CA! Go give your ideas to CA! If you want innovation, play CA! BA works, we dont need to break it!' not CA players.

BA works very well as it is. Its stable. If for no other reason than that a community needs a consistent, stable mod in order to mature, it is important to have a mod that IS stable (lets totally ignore the whole 'It might actually horribly break the game' factor of constantly changing a mod).

CA is the slightly schizophrenic, innovative, 'Lets add some more units!', pushing the limits of spring, 10 updates a day mod. If you prefer that, play CA. Its really quite that simple and im sure the BA players and devs will agree with me on that.

Im sure they'd much rather you harass us than them.

yes!

or make a mutator of your own.

Mr.Frumious wrote:I know Sleska disagrees, since he's a firm believer in the "T2 replaces T1" school with many units (HLTs vs. Vipers, for example), but I thought LordMatt was against T1-deprecation?

I don't see any problem with lvl 1 fighter lvl 2 fighter balance, my comments were in regard to lvl 2 sea, which replaces lvl 1 sea completely and immediately atm because of OP cruiser. Though, I wish lvl 1 fighters could be microed like they were able to be in OTA.

I never got to micro in OTA, I was sucha new comer back then. CA is indeed bit wierd and enigmatic. So many things happen that if you are not comfortable by far it just gets too complex and hard to comprehend it all.

There's still a lot of cool micro you can do in spring with BA, particularly with jeffs and fleas, but I do miss the challenge of hitting all five mex in on bombing run on coast to coast.

Yeah, jeffies and fleas have so much speed than with expert micro they can be a true game deciders. And thats not just first minutes.

lordmatt, care to detail to us what has changed in the current version of spring that makes microing the t1 air not as viable as it was in OTA?

freedom fighter/avenger dancing

linebombing, which was more like a art form

Sleksa wrote:This is the wrong place to voice out your new ideas, ba is not going to incorporate your new ideas.

Sleksa, I've been quite careful to make my suggestions for "new ideas" be a lot more like bug fixes than actual balance changes. I like BA the way it is, you've done a very good job of it.

My main concern with Spring has always been the interface, and doing what we can to clean up annoying stuff while keeping the game more or less as it is. Some of this is at the mod level: if targeting underwater structures with land artillery is something we want to happen, then we should make it more obvious that it's not an exploit with force fire.

Similarly, if air repair pads are going to be harmful for everything but the strongest planes, we should set all but the strongest planes to have return to airbase at 0% rather than the current default.

Air is very different in Spring. It behaves totally differently and is much less responsive to micro (to the point that micro'ing planes is nearly useless). In addition, bombs are hard-coded to only drop in bursts, and you cannot at the moment make them drop continuously.

I like BA the way it is, you've done a very good job of it.

Nozie, Day and Caydr did a good job Slek didnt do anything.

Yoko, both those things you bring up are engine issues. Underwater units are hard-coded. Equally i do not believe that there is an easy way to set a default return % (i could be wrong).