Spring RTS Engine

DT only block rocko rockets if you built them around a beamer..
gg hitbox or we i dont know but they shoot over them :)

DT don't block all the shots, but I've seen them block a decent enough number when built around an HLT. It may be because I tend to put HLTs on raised land, though.

That crawling bomb fix applies to the Skuttle too right? Also, that idea about the Dragon's Teeth and fort walls is pretty sweet, would that mean units could target them too? Right now besides crawling bombs / AOE units / tac or regular nukes, the only way to really deal with fort walls is to recalim them.

Applies to skuttles too, yeah.

This change to dragons teeth/fort walls isn't guaranteed to work properly. Might have to put out another new version real quick if it turns out it wrecks gameplay. I'm afraid of the possible exploitation that could happen. Units automatically target the most expensive thing in sight, right? If that's the case, they should still ignore DT for the most part, unless it's the only thing to shoot at.

What I'm worried about is that units might "lock on" to dt early in an attack and continue attacking them even though they're getting blasted away by real units or something.

what about enemy dragons teeth that you don't want to destroy?

Why wouldn't you want to destroy em?

if the enemy goes through the trouble to build a bunker and you can drive him out, you might as well use it for yourself.

Well, you might as well release a test beta with that change. Getting people to test it is the only way to tell if it'll actually work. It wouldn't be fair to make everyone who downloads 2.22 test it.

Yeah I suppose...

I'd really like to get a final beta out today though, not sure if I'll have time to put in this new system (and then have the possibility of needing to remove it again). I've got 4 hours left before real life has to take over.

Well I'd suggest not putting it in then, the only good side I see to it anyway is that you wont have to use a con or use large aoe weapons to take out a wall of dragons teeth(which are rarely built/ a problem). While you might get all sorts of crazy unit reactions when you build them around defenses which they should be attacking instead, while not even looking at issues with unit count.

Get all the work besides this done, then add this change in dead last. If it sucks, you can go back to the point right before you changed right?

Edit: and yeah, its not that big of a deal. It can always wait for the next patch.

Is there really any problem with DT the way they are now? I don't think so. Also, if you make them structures won't they go against the unit count? seems like they'd stack up pretty fast

OMG are you ppl crazy?

Dragon's teeth are for 1 thing, and 1 thing only.
To stop or slow an advance of units at certain places.

If they stop a few incoming shots aimed at a defence, then good, if they don't then you still have a wall there to slow down the enemy and possibly buy you some time to reinforce.

IMO, DT are best vs flash/gator swarms, or for stopping a few Rocko/Storm/Slasher/Samson rockets if you're lucky.

They should always be reclaimable, and should always be destroyable.

If you manage to down a defence structure, and have the time to bring a slowass Construction unit up to remove them so your forces can move in, thats the enemy's fault for letting you.

The few weapons that are stopped by DT, are typically rockets and some low trajectory weapons such as Pewee's/Ak's Flash/Gators.

Thuds for instance never miss a DT hardened Defence, neither to Stumpies/Raiders, Lvl-1 Artillery vehicles and after 2.22 Janus won't miss either.

Leave Dt how they are plz.

If you want to stop DT from blocking shots you can do 1 of 2 things

1. make all weapons use Ballistics so they drop down into the object they're attacking instead of shooting straight at it.

2. Reduce the bounding box/hitbox height of the DT itself.

Should the initial energy cost of medium mines be so high? Its like having a dgun firing constantly just to build one them. Even on a mid game economy its pretty draining to build afew never mind a field of them.

What time-frame are they expected to be used in btw? Early/Midgame?

OK guys, I just spent about an hour doing some more scientific testing of how the Lvl-1 weapons are effected by DT.

Please note that this is a very static test, and can't be used in every scenario, although basic principle will be similar.

Here are my findings so far.

Whether a weapon can shoot past a DT is based on 3 things.

#1. Angle of attack (height of attacking unit vs target height)

#2. Weapon trajectory (arched shot vs Beam/straight shot)

#3. Visibility of the unit, affects #1 & #2 (Radar blip vs Revealed unit.)

My tests were done on 100% flat ground using 1 LLT that is completely
visible, and a row of Dragons Teeth, 4 DT away from the LLT.

Meaning if you build a line of DT as close as possible from the LLT, the 4th
dragon's tooth away from the LLT is where the wall is.

My findings are shown in a picture that I spend an hour making for you guys to understand this completely, so there is no BS or guesses made.

I found that weapons that "shoot straight" can be blocked if a DT is directly
at the unit, or is at least 65-70% of the weapon's range away from the unit.

Basically the farther away from the LLT the DT is built, the better the odds are for the DT to block a shot.

The % chance that a DT will block a shot is greatly increased if the DT is elevated, and the target is not, this is Strictly about Line of Sight.

When a unit fires at a LLT, it fires at the center point between the bottom and top of the unit (dead center) so the taller the unit, the higher the chance of scoring a hit.

Pewee, AK, Flash, and Instigator units failed the test completely, either by being destroyed before making a strike on the LLT, or by the DT blocking the shot once they got in range.

Flash, and Instigators weapons were in range but unable to shoot at 4 Dt distance from the LLT, also Pewee/Ak died before getting into range to shoot so I exempted them from the pictures, but they were tested.

Here are the results, and I hope this clears some things up.

TEST RESULTS
http://mrd.str8-6.com/files/DT-TEST.jpg

tbh I like DTs the way they are, having them as features instead of buildings means they have a different counter - namely constructors - and this is where using combat engineers/farks on the frontlines (hardly a huge investment, and useful for many other things too) comes in.

I think it works quite well

having them as units would just mean they'd have the same old boring counter as any other defence - namely, shooting at it ad nauseum...making them units just means they'd take longer to get rid of, might take up shots that could have been fired at something more important, and signifies the removal of what is currently quite an interesting extra use for construction units

in summary: they're fine as they are

at least make dragon teeth faster to build

i also got stuck poison arrows and i mean stuck even after i reclaimed the factory

EXit_W0und wrote:Should the initial energy cost of medium mines be so high? Its like having a dgun firing constantly just to build one them. Even on a mid game economy its pretty draining to build afew never mind a field of them.

What time-frame are they expected to be used in btw? Early/Midgame?

There was a bit of posting about this before and it didnt get addresed.


To try and use mines in a serious game is suicide because of their ridiculous energy cost

Two ideas regarding DT units:

1. BadTargetCategory for all units (just put any and all categories used by that tag in there)
2. Having a field of DTs as one building block instead of a single DT.

So make the mines cheaper: maybe half or quarter their energy costs. I suspect Cadyr reduced their metal costs and build time but forgot to adjust the energy costs.
Also it would be nice if their build range was increased a small fraction so mines could build further away when it's certain they'll go off as soon as they're built...