Spring RTS Engine

TradeMark wrote:I do care.

And OMFG thanks for making this to offtopic again.

I aint talking what is GOOD in general view of point, or who is right and who is wrong in the map goodness.
Im talking about what could be more fun and more optimal: no need to make 10 different copies of one map.

And think the map hardness again, some good maps have still bad hardness values. Think think think. think different mods, think.

I have 38 maps to choose from and none of them deform (because it causes lag and mucks up gameplay), unless they get hit by a nuke in which case they deform a bit.

Trademark, what you want would cause more frustration, especially for newbies. How the hell is a newb supposed to become good at a game if the same map he plays over and over to learn the game keeps changing with every game.

Popular = good? Are you stupid? Aww damn, speedmetal is the paradigm of mapping concepts. I suppose I should just stop.

Trademark, you are throwing youself on the sword for all the wrong reasons.

If popular = good, then that answers your request for you. No one here thinks it is a good idea and therefore it is not popular, so either way...

You Fail.

Well, this is just a personal oppinion, but I feel that true skill at an RTS is independant of map knowledge. There for, unpredictable maps is a plus (this does not relate to the request by the way). I disagree that a map needs to remain the same for a player to learn their units (indead, changing maps could show new insite).

Of course I would make random maps mandatory in most RTS's (maybe if you invest some sort of starting points, you get some of the map revieled) but thats just my prefernce. Largly stems from people learning a map back and front (not possible in a conflict) and then using some simple, but perfected stratagy that only works on that map, when in reality, even a familar battle field changes dramatically over the course of a war or prolonged conflict.

and popular certainly does NOT equal good. It only meens that the map conforms to a certain paradime that, happens to be in the majority. There are a large number of things, both in the past and the present that are popular, this has in no way made them of a higher quality or better than other things. In fact, many popular things hold back better inovations and more exceptional achievments (Tesla's energy technology).

Trademark wrote:I dont think anyone will put game on just because of idling... it needs 2 players at least...

Waste of time...

Don't games with bots in them increase the rank as well? PS: I'm still on second rank or what ever and honestly couldn't care less.

TradeMark wrote:Edit:
What if we could have "remove metalmap" feature? Its fun to play maps without metal... but its not so fun to download identical map with maxmetal=0; option in its smd file...

D o w n l o a d? You can change it in under a minute by exctracting the smd to the map folder and change it with by hand. You don't even wreck the map by simply overriding it.

KDR_11k wrote:Exit: Does handicap affect all ressources or just metal extraction?

IIRC it doesn't affect energy output but modulates damage values, hitpoints and extraction rates. Could be wrong though and the only thing it doesn't affect were wind/tidal generators. Not sure.


Anyway, it's clearly a no for me and because something is popular doesn't mean it's good. Britney's music is quite popular but do you listen to it?
(For some reason I expect you to say yes now)

MrSpontaneous wrote:Well, this is just a personal oppinion, but I feel that true skill at an RTS is independant of map knowledge. There for, unpredictable maps is a plus (this does not relate to the request by the way). I disagree that a map needs to remain the same for a player to learn their units (indead, changing maps could show new insite).

+1

Soulless1 wrote:seriously, I don't get why anyone has an objection to this at all - its a great idea ...more options = better, always...If the host wants to use options that you don't, nobody is forcing you to play that game; we have the same scenario right now with picking maps and mods, and that works just fine

Yeah! Why is that such a problem now options makes the game more flexible.

Forboding Angel wrote:Trademark, what you want would cause more frustration, especially for newbies. How the hell is a newb supposed to become good at a game if the same map he plays over and over to learn the game keeps changing with every game.

Bullshit. Nobody learns the game like that. Actually when you are noob, you dont much care what kind the map is, and you just build few mexes and thats it. If you want became elite pr0, you start thinking what you should do in this map, depending on the starting positions.
Your argument also sounds like that when you start in different positions every time, you can never learn the game, because there is different metal spots.

rattle wrote:Don't games with bots in them increase the rank as well? PS: I'm still on second rank or what ever and honestly couldn't care less.

No, you need 2 players.

rattle wrote:

TradeMark wrote:Edit:
What if we could have "remove metalmap" feature? Its fun to play maps without metal... but its not so fun to download identical map with maxmetal=0; option in its smd file...

D o w n l o a d? You can change it in under a minute by exctracting the smd to the map folder and change it with by hand. You don't even wreck the map by simply overriding it.

What the hell? im not playing spring alone, 10 other players needs to do that too, and most of them dont know how, and i dont have time for explaining it for computer noobs who dont know how to rename file.
And i cant override it, or it causes sync errors when others have same map but with different settings :D

rattle wrote:Anyway, it's clearly a no for me and because something is popular doesn't mean it's good. Britney's music is quite popular but do you listen to it?

Do you mean those people who listens it doensnt like the music? You fail.


Why is this so hard for you guys?
We are not changing the map, only the settings:
1) map hardness
2) maxmetal
3) starting positions
4) max/min wind

maxmetal would have multipliers 0-2 (decimal number)

By changing those settings, it doesnt make the map that different you cant play it.

And NO, handicap is not a solution.

TradeMark wrote:

rattle wrote:Anyway, it's clearly a no for me and because something is popular doesn't mean it's good. Britney's music is quite popular but do you listen to it?

Do you mean those people who listens it doensnt like the music? You fail.

No. What I mean is that only because something is quite popular amongst people it doesn't make it good. It CAN be good but the fact that it's popular has no impact on it. Speedmetal would be the most awesome map by your logic (because it's pretty popular amogst certain players). I know you didn't mean it that way but hey I'm right on this one (and others are too).

omg...

It is good for those people who likes it.

If you dont like something, it doesnt mean its not good for someone else!!!

And no, speedmetal is not awesome map with my logic, the people who plays it, likes it. They dont play some map if they dont like it, gotcha???

Im not comparing popularity as goodness, but if it is popular, it should not be removed, because people likes it.
Why to make game if you want to ban every map that you dont like to play but many other people likes?

Huh? Actually I think in a different way... oh well I think we're having troubles understanding each other, lets quit it before it escalates...

lol, you people are crackers ^_^

If a little icon pops up that says 'map settings modified' and, say, you want to play on an unmodified version...join a different game maybe? Or just ask the host to change it...but it would definately be cool to be able to play varied game types on the maps we use all the time - and trust me, that will be both a 'popular' and 'good' optional feature, however you want to define the terms




P.S. except maybe if you want to define the term 'good' to mean 'comes with free pink elephants'...but I'm sure we could code in a little something for the LSD-using crowd while we're at it so it's all cool

Trademark: handicap increases the amount of metal income per metal extractor/moho by the value of the handicap. So a handicap of 40 will give you 140% more metal for each extractor. If that extractor was getting 2m by default then it would now be getting 2.8.
You could increase the metal maps brightness enough to do the equivelent, and it would be more complicated & time consuming.


The only thing is I forgot that handicap can't be negative to reduce the average mex income - but if it were that would be a far easier way of implementing what you want. I'm sure a quick patch could be implemented. (who wants to write it?)
As an aside - i want to see random start actually spawn you in random positions!

Handicap also affected to damage/health? (someone said so)
And it doesnt give you more metal, your buildings cost just cost less, so when you build 1000M building with 50hcap, you only pay for 500M or something like that it was...
Last time when i used 80hcap, i could build krogtaar with 3 mex spots in a short while, but my metal bar was showing +6M or something like that.

And when you put negative hcap, it means that everything costs more than normally, which would not be same as changing maxmetal value in the file.
Because, when you reclaim your wreck which gives 500M, you can build much less things with it if it was negative hcap, but when maxmetal is reduced a bit, then you could build as much as normally, but you only get less metal per mex.

So hcap is not a solution.

Uh, trademark, if everything costs less by half, then its the *exact same* as every metal spot giving twice as much.


What grade are you in? Have you taken basic precalculus? (Not insulting, just wondering; we could back up our statements with some math equations if need be).


Edit: and the statement about wrecks and features NOT giving more/less to players based on handicap is a bug.

wtf are you talking?

Its not the same. Lets say i get free metal from somewhere, i can make 5 units with it, and i have -50hcap.

If i have no hcaps, playing normally, and i get same amount of free metal, i can build 10 units.

Do you get it?

And wtf is wrong with these english boards when everyone insults each other?? Havent seen such shit in finnish boards ever. EVER

Dragon45 wrote: (Not insulting, just wondering; we could back up our statements with some math equations if need be).

...Please read fully before making snappish comments. Kthxbi.

Oh god.

It's probably a communication problem again. Dude relax, no one's going to rip your head off or had intentions to insult you, nor do we insult each other (save some people who occasionally do). A lot are reasonable people (with a short temper though ).

wtf are you talking?

This on the other hand isn't nice... looks like you're talking down on someone even though you're probably not. Let's just assume you aren't.


Anyway handicap is not a replacement at all for what he wants because handicap does more than just modifying metal values... still I'm against it because it can make finding a proper game even more frustrating than it currently is. How many people didn't memorize if it's comm ends or what the wind strength was? Well there's a nice info window now accessible by pressing i in .73 now... anyway it's going to be worse with more options. That's my opinion about it.

I think i should point out that buildings and units dont cost any less with the handicap, just that you gain more metal from mexes.
I'm not that bothered if this does get implemented, because i don't think it will be commonly used - or handicap already would be since its an ok alternative (even if it's not Exactly what you want).

Handicap increases metal/energy output from solars, mexes etc by the stated percentage. i cant remember if it shows the bonues in your metal / energy bars or only when you hover over individual building, its one of the two though.

Handicap also increases the amount of metal/energy you get from reclaiming by the stated % aswell. So with a wreck worth 100 metal and a 100% handicap, you'll get 200 metal.

I still don't understand what anyone's objection is to the original idea... I mean no-one's disputing you can do *some* of this stuff with a handicap and other workarounds, but wouldn't a more customisable system with extra options like hardness modifiers and the like be...well, better?

Personally i don't mind the handicap being modified to include negative values (quickest way tbh), and i think that start positions should be moveable as well as the option to randomly select one at start up should actually work.

I think this is the type of thing in Battlefield 1942. Map objects and stuff could be changed by the server without requiring a new download by the Players. They'd load in and everything would be different. In Spring this would mean that someone could edit their map and everybody would be able to play it.