Spring RTS Engine

zwzsg wrote: engine devs: not interested in saves
game devs: doing saves on their own
players: ignoring Lua-based saves, asking again anyway

I'm not a game developer, but shouldn't it be your job to implement save/load support? And the engine's job to provide an interface for you to do so?

Foreboding Angle wrote:I am waiting from someone to implement what argh has been talking about, but it's a lot of work and won't be happening "tomorrow".

That someone would be me, and your wait is over.

Forboding Angel:
Did you actually read my report? I was unhappy that hoijui put words in my mouth, he is claiming i said somthing i did not. My complaint has nothing to do with save/load. So my complaint still stands and is valid. Please take a second look.

Pressure Line:
See above.

Tobi:
Hoijui did not post those commands in this thread as he stated.
I feel that complaint still stands.

Well if you like you may submit an open source RTS that doesn't support save/load thats ok so long as its name isnt spring or tower defense. Feel free to post a game name.

Hoijui did not state facts, if he had he would have used copy and paste rather than the interpretation he posted.

Shall i go around 'interpreting' all you posts? I'd reckon it wouldn't be long before somone tried to moderate me.

All those who complained about percentages over 100 should take a good look at the forum's profile screen which uses decimal points in its display of percentages which is also incorrect behavour. When you have fixed that come back here a complain about other peoples use of the percent sign.

One might assume from the backlash that spring can load saves, which it cannot due to it performing 'illegal operations'. So one might assume that this is a bug and as such might be addressed at some defined point in the future.

So hows it going to be guys? Will i go around post incorrect interprations, am i allowed to do that? if not then you should take my complaint seriously. If you don't mind me doing this then just say so.

Id10TError: Beating people over the head with cold hard logic since, from my point of view, the dawn of time.

idiot error wrote:oh as a second comment, can you save and load with the ai using the mod your pic show?

Yes!*

*Assuming you use my mod of his mod, assuming you use save & load from the custom esc menu and not the hard coded one, assuming absence of space in install path, assuming you only use the AI included in the mod (but other AI cannot play Gundam anyway), assuming there isn't too many units with too long queues, assuming you don't mind losing under construction units, ....

FWIW id10, my post was more a commentary on your attitude than anything else.

The commands that Hoijui mentioned are part of the AI framework, hiding deep inside the engine, not something you type into the console like /cheat. Its certaily not Hoijui's fault if submarine, Error323, AF, Reth and Kloot(?) haven't taken advantage.

And as has been mentioned in either this thread or the other one, there are other parts of save/load that are broken before AIs not working becomes an issue, as well as other things about Spring in general that are more urgent that need to be fixed. Also do remember that atm Spring is mostly used as a multiplayer platform, so save/load is a bit of a moot point (although GRTS and KP both have Lua based save/load solutions, its up to you [or someone else who cares enough] to port it to your favorite Spring game, but i don't think there are any LuaAI's that play any of the *A mods, so you may be stuck there.)

Pressure Line:
Fair enough, you may post anything you like when it comes to opionions.
My comment about hoijui AI commands was more of a reference to the fact that they are not present in this thread (that said even if they were you wouldnt be able to use them at the 'console' as you mentioned in your post)
But my question was about putting words in other peoples mouths? That was the reason i requested moderation.


Zwzsg:
Coooool will give it a go later.

edit: less angry

id10terror wrote:Shall i go around 'interpreting' all you posts? I'd reckon it wouldn't be long before somone tried to moderate me.
...
So hows it going to be guys? Will i go around post incorrect interprations, am i allowed to do that?

Are you serious? hoijui misinterpreted a part of your post (in fact, given the non-formal nature of the argument, it could be argued that it was an exaggeration for effect rather than a misinterpretation), you clarify your statement, and that would have been the end of it if you hadn't thought that it was a serious enough issue to warrant multiple follow-up posts complaining about the same thing and a request for moderator action. The relevant issue occurred on one post; hoijui didn't "go around" interpreting all of anyone's posts, much less yours. Methinks thou doth protest too much.

Furthermore, you complain about hoijui ignoring you on the basis of this misinterpreted post, even though for this purpose the misinterpretation is a distinction without a difference: regardless of whether everyone doesn't play Spring or only TA people who require save/load before considering Spring, the problem remains either way: none of the devs are currently interested in such a problem. If lack of save/load remains such an issue despite explanations from at least three developers now, you have one solution: write and submit an engine patch.

tl;dr: no amount of bawwing about how mean hoijui misinterpreted your post is going to solve the save/load problem. Find something worth complaining about (and I don't mean how volunteer devs for an open source game choose to spend their dev hours).

Shall i go around 'interpreting' all you posts? I'd reckon it wouldn't be long before somone tried to moderate me.

If you can find precedent for someone on this forum being moderated for misinterpreting a post, please do so.
If you can find a case of someone on this forum "going around" misinterpreting another, specific person's posts, please do so.
Until then, stop making assumptions.

All those who complained about percentages over 100 should take a good look at the forum's profile screen which uses decimal points in its display of percentages which is also incorrect behavour. When you have fixed that come back here a complain about other peoples use of the percent sign.

1) How is the forum profile screen in any shape, way or form relevant to what people are discussing in this thread?
2) Usage of decimal points in displaying percentages (e.g. 0.15% which is the percentage of posts on this forum that are mine) is perfectly valid and correct.


One more thing:

smoth wrote:Spring is not ta. It is an engine.

id10terror wrote:Ahh you seem to be implying that ta doesn't have a game engine, so i guess i'm just moving units around in cad or somthing then?

This is not only an obviously wrong interpretation, it is a wildly impossible one. How on Earth does "Spring is an engine, not a game" go to "TA (a game) does not have an engine"?

So, will you be correcting this blatant misinterpretation of another person's post, or will moderator action be required?

KingRaptor:
I'll restate my complaint again shall i?
Hoijui says i said somthing that clearly i did not, despite attempts at clarification with hoijui he still believes this and has not changed that post in any way. So i complain that hoijui has said things about me that aren't true, my complaint has nothing to do with save/load.

Make sure you address the numbered questions.
1. Am i allowed to go around posting incorrect points of view on other users?
2. Are other users allowed to go around posting incorrect points of view on other users?
3. Are spring developers 'above' the rules when it comes to these things.
4. Exactly what assumptions have i made?

As for smoths post, i believe i may have incorrectly interpreted his post but in my defence i did say 'maybe i have missed somthing feel free to tell me what it is' at which point another user pointed out what smoth was trying to get through to me and i let the post drop. Spring isnt Ta. and shouldn't be treated as such. Please take this as my correction to my error.
5. Now are you going to correct hoijuis mistake?

As for percentages, as was stated in my post that was targeted at those who posted here complaining about percentages.
6.1. People have posted in this thread complaining about the use of percentages. You should read the whole thread and this would become clear to you.
6.2. Use of decimal points in percentages is like bad language, its good to be able to get your point across, but isn't considered politically correct.

I was making a comparison between engines, not implying that spring was a rebuild of ta. My statment was crafted to highlight this position.

7. Now please explain how your post has helped me resolve these issues?

id10t, arguing at this point is pretty pointless, simply because anyone here witht he power to actually do anything (on the engine side) thinks you're a whiny twit (myself included fyi). Therefore, you can figure that your whining is likely falling on ears deaf to you.

id10terror wrote:6.2. Use of decimal points in percentages is like bad language, its good to be able to get your point across, but isn't considered politically correct.

Nice WTF.

wtf are you arguing now

why this thread aint locked yet?

SMOTH IS GAY!

hope that does it.

This thread is now about the incorrect politics of NASDAQ.
How rude of them to dot their percents!

My request for moderation serves 2 purposes, the first was to try and get hoijui to understand what i originally said. You as moderators should have jumped at the chance to reconcile the differences between us. After all thats what a 'moderator' is supposed to do. But you guys clearly mess that definition up.

That said i have reconsidered my position in relation to hoijui and i no longer give a rats arse about how he feels about me, if he wants to take that position with me thats fine, just remember i am now allowed to make posts about hoijui that are both offensive and untrue as he was allowed to do this to me and the moderators chose to take no action.

The second was to show how one sided arguments are between spring 'non-users' and spring 'developers'.
A point which you have helped me to demonstrate. Endlessly.

From another point of view:
Oh no please dont post here complaining that i have requested moderation because someone here has said things that are untrue and refuses to communicate on the issue. Oh no please dont draw any attention to the fact that the devs and moderators are above the rules. And please for god's sake dont highlight what a piss poor position we have taken toward the overall functionality of spring in the future. A game engine that requires developers create thier own save/load subsystem. I'm absoloutley certain that you will have no competition in the future from any other RTS engines. And clearly a working save/load system will be of absoloutly no benefit to spring whatsoever. Please forgive me for wasting your time oh masters of the 'game engine'.

Thanks and respect go out to:
zwzsg, argh.
Because they put up with my piss poor comments and complaints and they also put up with the piss poor comments and complaints the devs made. And despite all this they are still working toward a solution.
zwzsg has created save/load for Gundam.
Argh appears to be trying for a more 'universal' solution to the problem.

Stockmarkets suck, litrally, they steal money off the factory floor. No body should be paid that well for doing nothing.

idiot error wrote: zwzsg has created save/load for Gundam.
Argh appears to be trying for a more 'universal' solution to the problem.

Err, no. Both system require extra files to be added to the mod. Both system would need extra code to handle each game specificity (for instance, Gundam has research level, or Kernel Panic has network's buffer, two things a universel system would miss). In fact, my savegame system could already be universal since I could load a KP game from Gundam menu by removing a couple line of code:
- The call to the function that force-change the modname in the script to the mod currently running (which I added because I use the same code for saves and missions, and having to edit all my missions files at every mod version number incrementation was tedious)
- And the lines where I put Gundam saves in their own /Gundam/ subfolder, (which I added because I thought it would be cleaner).

Also, you forgot http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=20842

Clearly my editing my post to be less aggressive was a mistake.

id10terror wrote:KingRaptor:
I'll restate my complaint again shall i?
Hoijui says i said somthing that clearly i did not, despite attempts at clarification with hoijui he still believes this

How do you know what hoijui now believes, and on what grounds do you think that what hoijui believes is an issue of any kind, let alone one that requires moderator attention?

and has not changed that post in any way.

Neither have you changed yours, but who's counting?

So i complain that hoijui has said things about me that aren't true

You post something, hoijui misinteprets it in the next post, you clarify it in the third post. Issue settled, until you decide to make a mountain or two out of a molehill.

1. Am i allowed to go around posting incorrect points of view on other users?

What is "posting incorrect points of view"? If you mean making posts etc. which indicate misunderstanding of other users and/or their statements, you're welcome to point out where in the forum rules this is prohibited. In fact, you're welcome to name some places on the Internet or even in real life where it is explicitly prohibited.

And please stop using the nebulous, undefined, barely relevant phrase "going around".

2. Are other users allowed to go around posting incorrect points of view on other users?

See above.

3. Are spring developers 'above' the rules when it comes to these things.

.
No. If you can find a dev post breaking the aforementioned forum rules, use the report function.

4. Exactly what assumptions have i made?

"Shall i go around 'interpreting' all you posts? I'd reckon it wouldn't be long before somone tried to moderate me."

As for smoths post, i believe i may have incorrectly interpreted his post but in my defence i did say 'maybe i have missed somthing feel free to tell me what it is'

"Missed something" isn't usually a precursor to drawing implications that are obviously impossible even to an outsider with no understanding of the context.

at which point another user pointed out what smoth was trying to get through to me and i let the post drop. Spring isnt Ta. and shouldn't be treated as such.

...but you didn't stop to think that hoijui may similarly have let the post drop?

5. Now are you going to correct hoijuis mistake?

I guess you missed the point of that tu quoque.

I'm not you or hoijui (the relevant two parties in that issue) but if you insist: yes, if we're going for a literal reading, hoijui did misinterpret your post as claiming that Spring would lose all its players without save/load, when what you said was that TA players would stick with TA as long as Spring lacked some TA features.

Now, was there a point in there somewhere you were trying to make?

As for percentages, as was stated in my post that was targeted at those who posted here complaining about percentages.
6.1. People have posted in this thread complaining about the use of percentages. You should read the whole thread and this would become clear to you.

I know about the percentage discussion, but thanks for patronizing me. My point, which you missed, was that the percentage discussions involved forum posters commenting on other forum posters' use of percentages. The forum profile page is a completely unrelated and irrelevant third party in the discussion.

6.2. Use of decimal points in percentages is like bad language, its good to be able to get your point across, but isn't considered politically correct.

...
And here I was thinking that my original comment of "Did you pass grade school math?" was too insulting.


*making a quick jaunt into the next post here*

The second was to show how one sided arguments are between spring 'non-users' and spring 'developers'.
A point which you have helped me to demonstrate. Endlessly.

One-sided because the engine devs (and people who are not engine devs; so much for your false dichotomy) are telling you how it is, but you refuse to accept it?

From another point of view:
Oh no please dont post here complaining that i have requested moderation because someone here has said things that are untrue and refuses to communicate on the issue.

"The mean guy defamed me! I'm calling my lawyer!"

Oh no please dont draw any attention to the fact that the devs and moderators are above the rules.

A nice claim. Pity you haven't substantiated it with anything other than "hoijui misunderstood me and the mods aren't doing anything about it!"

And please for god's sake dont highlight what a piss poor position we have taken toward the overall functionality of spring in the future. A game engine that requires developers create thier own save/load subsystem. I'm absoloutley certain that you will have no competition in the future from any other RTS engines. And clearly a working save/load system will be of absoloutly no benefit to spring whatsoever. Please forgive me for wasting your time oh masters of the 'game engine'.

We appreciate the lecture on what the engine needs, as you are clearly the first person to consider that Spring would benefit from a save/load system. We appreciate your comments on how save/load should be handled engine side, made in ignorance of Spring's game/engine relationship. We also appreciate the blatantly obvious strawmen.

Now that you've given your talk, be part of the solution or GTFO.

*back to the original post*

7. Now please explain how your post has helped me resolve these issues?

If you mean the issue of hoijui misunderstanding you, it's a significant issue only to you.
If you mean the issue of save/load not working, it's already been explained in this thread.

• If you want engine-side save/load support, write an engine patch.
• If you want a specific game on the engine to have save/load, offer to write a patch for that game that implements a new save/load system or ports an existing one.

However, underlying this two issues you've been having in this thread is a much bigger problem, and that problem lies with you. I'm sorry, but that's all that can be said.

For the record, hoijui didn't misinterpret it (at least, not imo), because I read it the same way and gleaned the exact same interpretation.

Id10t, your use of the English language leaves quite a bit to be desired, and considering that many of the people here don't have English as their first language... perhaps you should work on English composition. Even so, English is my first language and I still read it the same way.

Aggression: knocked up a notch by kingraptor

KingRaptor:
How do you know what hoijui now believes, and on what grounds do you think that what hoijui believes is an issue of any kind, let alone one that requires moderator attention?

Me:
Uhhh, duh, His post maybe.

KingRaptor:
Neither have you changed yours, but who's counting?

Me:
So what exactly did i get wrong?

KingRaptor:
You post something, hoijui misinteprets it in the next post, you clarify it in the third post. Issue settled, until you decide to make a mountain or two out of a molehill.

Me:
Waiting on aknowledgemnt from hoijui. And your not making any mountains here are you? A simple "fair enough" would have sufficed.

Me:
1. Am i allowed to go around posting incorrect points of view on other users?

KingRaptor:
What is "posting incorrect points of view"? If you mean making posts etc. which indicate misunderstanding of other users and/or their statements, you're welcome to point out where in the forum rules this is prohibited. In fact, you're welcome to name some places on the Internet or even in real life where it is explicitly prohibited.
And please stop using the nebulous, undefined, barely relevant phrase "going around".

Me:
The forum rules for this subforum are actually located here http://springrts.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=93672#p93672 I suggest you get off your arse and read them. Specifically the part about 'If you can't help, don't post. No flames, no off topic comments, no QFE's or QFT's.' If you had actually read them you might see a post from me at the bottom seeking further clarification.

Me:
2. Are other users allowed to go around posting incorrect points of view on other users?

Kingraptor:
See above.

Me:
See above.

Me:
3. Are spring developers 'above' the rules when it comes to these things.

Kingraptor:
No. If you can find a dev post breaking the aforementioned forum rules, use the report function.

Me:
Really? thanks for that. So what happens if you have already done that?

Me:
4. Exactly what assumptions have i made?
shall i go around 'interpreting' all you posts? I'd reckon it wouldn't be long before somone tried to moderate me.

Me:
Well lets test this with my next post.

Me:
As for smoths post, i believe i may have incorrectly interpreted his post but in my defence i did say 'maybe i have missed somthing feel free to tell me what it is.

Kingraptor:
"Missed something" isn't usually a precursor to drawing implications that are obviously impossible even to an outsider with no understanding of the context.

Me:
I didn't understand exactly what smoth was getting at, now i could take the time to try and attack him further but that would be counterproductive instead i'll ask you who appointed you judge and jury of what is correct and incorrect? And who asked you to get involved in our discussion?

Me:
....at which point another user pointed out what smoth was trying to get through to me and i let the post drop. Spring isnt Ta. and shouldn't be treated as such.

Kingraptor:
...but you didn't stop to think that hoijui may similarly have let the post drop?

Me:
No because i PMed him to try and get us back on 'the straight and narrow' and he ignored me.

Me:
5. Now are you going to correct hoijuis mistake?

Kingraptor:
I guess you missed the point of that tu quoque.
I'm not you or hoijui(the relevant two parties in that issue) but if you insist: yes, if we're going for a literal reading, hoijui did misinterpret your post as claiming that Spring would lose all its players without save/load, when what you said was that TA players would stick with TA as long as Spring lacked some TA features.

Now, was there a point in there somewhere you were trying to make?

Me:
Thanks you for your correct interpretation.
My point was:
TA players would stick with TA as long as Spring lacked some TA features. And if you were to remove these barriers then you would get a larger community and hopefully more devs and a better game engine.

ME:
As for percentages, as was stated in my post that was targeted at those who posted here complaining about percentages.
6.1. People have posted in this thread complaining about the use of percentages. You should read the whole thread and this would become clear to you.

Kingraptor:
I know about the percentage discussion, but thanks for patronizing me. My point, which you missed, was that the percentage discussions involved forum posters commenting on other forum posters' use of percentages. The forum profile page is a completely unrelated and irrelevant third party in the discussion.

ME: 6.2. Use of decimal points in percentages is like bad language, its good to be able to get your point across, but isn't considered politically correct. And percentages are displayed on the forum profile screen, adding relevence to discussion.

Kingraptor:
And here I was thinking that my original comment of "Did you pass grade school math?" was too insulting.

Me:
I learnt that decimals in percentages while not 'illegal' is 'incorrect' in grade school. Altho in our country this might be described as 'year 5'

Kingraptor:
*making a quick jaunt into the next post here*

Me:
The second was to show how one sided arguments are between spring 'non-users' and spring 'developers'.
A point which you have helped me to demonstrate. Endlessly.

Kingraptor:
One-sided because the engine devs (and people who are not engine devs; so much for your false dichotomy) are telling you how it is, but you refuse to accept it?

Me:
My argurment has nothing to do with save/load. Please reinterpret my post.

Me:
From another point of view:
Oh no please dont post here complaining that i have requested moderation because someone here has said things that are untrue and refuses to communicate on the issue.

Kingraptor:
"The mean guy defamed me! I'm calling my lawyer!"

Me:
Not a lawyer, a moderator, please pay closer attention to my posts.

Me:
Oh no please dont draw any attention to the fact that the devs and moderators are above the rules.

Kingraptor:
A nice claim. Pity you haven't substantiated it with anything other than "hoijui misunderstood me and the mods aren't doing anything about it!"

Me:
And he ignored PMs, further posts and the moderators were only interested in bitching about the issue as a whole. I think thats fairly convincing proof. If you have a better way to test this please point it out to me.

Me:
And please for god's sake dont highlight what a piss poor position we have taken toward the overall functionality of spring in the future. A game engine that requires developers create thier own save/load subsystem. I'm absoloutley certain that you will have no competition in the future from any other RTS engines. And clearly a working save/load system will be of absoloutly no benefit to spring whatsoever. Please forgive me for wasting your time oh masters of the 'game engine'.

kingraptor:
We appreciate the lecture on what the engine needs, as you are clearly the first person to consider that Spring would benefit from a save/load system. We appreciate your comments on how save/load should be handled engine side, made in ignorance of Spring's game/engine relationship. We also appreciate the blatantly obvious strawmen.

Now that you've given your talk, be part of the solution or GTFO.

Me:
Likewise kingraptor.

I'll make another comparison here between spring and ta (engines only) if you add extra units to ta, savegames still function, so clearly save and load is done by the engine not the 'game'

Kingraptor:
*back to the original post*

Me:
7. Now please explain how your post has helped me resolve these issues?

Kingraptor:
If you mean the issue of hoijui misunderstanding you, it's a significant issue only to you.
If you mean the issue of save/load not working, it's already been explained in this thread.
[*] If you want engine-side save/load support, write an engine patch.
[*] If you want a specific game on the engine to have save/load, offer to write a patch for that game that implements a new save/load system or ports an existing one.

However, underlying this two issues you've been having in this thread is a much bigger problem, and that problem lies with you. I'm sorry, but that's all that can be said.

Me:
As i have stated many times, my complaint to the mods has nothing to do with save load. So in regard to hoijui you mean your post has been completely unhelpful. thanks heaps. GTFO

We're working on it. Keep yer shirt on. Even if I don't get any help at all, I will have this feature done tomorrow at a basic level, and then you just need to wait for people to update their games. Actual support from the current C++ AIs... well, that's up to their maintainers, but I suspect that working savegames will create a certain amount of incentive. Or you can wait for either my or zsxwg's Lua AIs to become available for your favorite game- I've been working on one that's very stupid but can play OTA games (in a stupid way) as quickly as it takes somebody to write a config.

As for feuding with Hoijui or whatever else has already happened in this thread, don't bother, it's not helpful.

Argh, are you talking about the script.txt implementation? Does it handle partially built units and guard orders?

Just as an aside, I actually wrote a save implementation for Supreme Commander (in Lua). It worked in a very similar way to the script.txt method except it was also capable of restoring partial builds and stored nukes. You'll probably unbalance the game without these since you might save the game 20 seconds before completing a krogoth or vulcan which would really suck.

EDIT: Also to id10terror, Way to totally derail the thread. How the fuck is anyone supposed to read this thing with your walls of arguments on the pros and cons of percentages and misquoting posts. Believe it or not nobody cares what you think of hoijoi or his forum etiquette. You had your answer on page 1. The next three pages are utter crap.

I don't know what the final features will be yet, but I'll try to address those issues if that's possible and reasonably practical.