Spring RTS Engine

lets disect some dumb shit!

But seriously. Does noone remember Day or rAndy pwning others with bots on flat maps like CCR... Bots are good. They're just too hard for average Joe on flat maps.

day or rAndy could pwn less capable players with half the number of units or with the other guy at +50% handicap, because they are EXTEMELY GOOD. its worth noting here that then being EXTEMELY GOOD has nothing to do with the power of Kbots, which is FRANKLY UNDERWELMING.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here. Peewee is (alot) cheaper than flash. And they got HUGE buff with this version of BA, because they don't chain blow anymore thus peewee spam just got better.

No, they are alot more expensive. they cost 250% more energy/ per metal tick than a flash. what does that mean? it means while you might need 4 solars to produce flash at X metal/tick, you would need 10 solars to produce peewee at the same speed.
two diffrent resources? shit son!
the result is that you can never produce a metal cost of peewee/ak that matches the metal cost that the other guy can make flash/gator, because your energy economy will never catch up 250% unless the other guy is afk
bearing in mind the speed and HP diffrences, 2 peewee is barely the equivalent of usefulness as a flash. so this argument is teh fails1!
chain splode nerf is defo movement in the right direction, though

Just remember: veh = spam spam spam, bots = micro spam micro.

no, vehicles need micro too. its just vs kbots the amount of micro required is comparatively less because the only effective unit is the rocko/storm and this is a low dps skirmisher.

AK players have to micro into point-blank-range to make up for the laser weapons. Peewees have to use fleas for sight-range-support and can be micro'd to use their height bonus. Plus, Arm gets fleas and warriors, Core doesn't. Sounds fair to me. I say leave the discrepancy between Arm and Core raider-bots.

so AK needs extra micro to be effective, plus arm gets fleas and warriors while core does not, peewee also gains range from height bonus ie, pwns ak on hill? how does that come out the other side of your statement as "sounds fair to me?" how about, "it sounds very much like arm kbots is a better lab?"

seriously,
I get that BA = conservative
but that is no excuse to say dumb shit in its defence

Worth noting that Wisse is a fairly experienced player whose conceptions of the game are informed not just by a cursory examination and comparison of unit stats but hundreds of hours of actual game time. He also specialises in kbots so I wouldn't just dismiss his comments out of hand.

Llamadeus wrote:Worth noting that Wisse is a fairly experienced player whose conceptions of the game are informed not just by a cursory examination and comparison of unit stats but hundreds of hours of actual game time. He also specialises in kbots so I wouldn't just dismiss his comments out of hand.

+1

I also agree that kbots are playable on any map that has some hills (where they should be used). IF AK is equaly good as gator on FLAT i ll never use vehicles again.

Tiny improvements like in 6.85 are in order though.

@Noize: Ty for your awsome contributions to most balanced and fun game of TA ever! Long live BA !!!

@ginekolog

I don't think anybody wants kbots to be as tough as vehicles on Comet Catcher. I think the goal is that kbots be more useful on maps that are hilly-but-supporting-vehicles.

Otherwise, why even include kbots in BA? If some maps are kbot maps and some maps are vehicle maps, then you've really just made two separate mods - BA kbots and BA vehicles, and never the two shall meet.

Duno about you but i use kbots on many maps, even meearth (depends on startpos).

Kbots also rox on this new, very nice map DesertSiege_v2b.sd7, on which both veh and kbots can win.

Mearth works because of a very peculiar case. The speed-boost on the roads means that the map is more cramped than it looks - the roads will force units into tight spaces, and will also make the distances less than they appear. This makes it Zeus heaven - no other L2 (or L1) unit can pack that much assault power into such a small space, and their speed boost means their range disadvantage is mitigated by an ability to get into firing range faster than normal.

Plus, in FFA, the L1 game is so random and unbalanced with unexpected gang-ups that you can't really properly see if strategies are effective. A player can be playing brilliantly but get utterly stomped because three other players have decided that they want his metal.

Haven't gotten a game on DesertSiege yet.

Either way, thanks to the modest buffage of the canon kbots (which is all I think any of us wanted) and the end of the raider-kbots boomdeath, the main popular complaint is the cons, which are too slow and fragile to use for expansion and wreck-harvesting on larger maps. Personally, I'm happy with 6.85 kbots, but I'd like to see their construction get a little loving.

I think a problem is one of perception - some players think of kbots as being as-good-as-vehicles, but trading speed for terrain... but kbots are a bit worse than that. The question is how much worse? Too much worse means that kbots are only used on kbot maps, which means they may as well be in a different game. Not-worse-enough means that we're back at Absolute Annihilation 1.X, where vehicles were the underdog.

Wisse wrote:Don't dumb down the only good mod left. BA is hard mod and it should stay like that. There are plenty other mods available for those who can't micro 3 or 4 groups of different units together. Just remember: veh = spam spam spam, bots = micro spam micro.

you realise how hilarious that sounds to anyone with much experience of say.... S44, SWIW, CA, SA, XTA, KP, EE, Gundam... I think you have far far less comparative experience than some of the people posting in this thread.

BA is one of the _most_simple_ mods, that emphasises eco/macro bruteforcing your opponents llt spam much much more than every other *a mod, and it has the lowest real unit diversity, in high lvl 1v1, of every *a mod (I wont even get into the "lol t2 is redundant" debate)

If you cannot understand how flash/gator are cheaper per unit of dps/hp than pw... wtf are you doing flaming people's ability to play in this thread?

Also, pls post a replay of you UBARMICROing your kbots thru aa truck kiting +leveller/janus rape, cos I would reallllllly love to see that.

One last point: how is making ak/pw cost balanced vs flash/gator in any way dumbing down the mod?

Sorry for sounding so combatitive in this post but well, lol, you are inferring that BA is in some way inherently more skill based than other mods...

ginekolog wrote:Duno about you but i use kbots on many maps, even meearth (depends on startpos).

I always go Kbots on DWorld and Mearth. Simply because zippers out power everything else because of their cheapness, speed, and ability to shoot through each other fast and easily.

On other maps like BB, I just spare as much M as I can and spam rockos ^_^

I think people questioning buffs on kbots are missing the point.
the point is that the AK and PEEWEE have ridiculous E-cost and Buildtime in comparison to their metal cost and role (in comparison to gator/flash).
besides the con, there is nothing else that needs changing.

I do not think their combat ability or metal cost should be touched.
I just think that their energy cost and Build time need to be readjusted to be more in line with vehicles so they are able to function as they should early game (ie, the kbot version of flash/gator rather than the kbot version of an overpowered weasel).
just knocking their E-cost a tick to somthing closer to say, 150% of the E usage of flash tanks would make using them that much more feasable.

Also, what pintle said there is very true, AA trucks and especially the core riot tank punch way above their weight against low hp kbots- not saying thats a problem but it means kbots will always be inferior at skirmishing on flat ground

Pxtl wrote:@Wisse

AK players have to micro into point-blank-range to make up for the laser weapons. Peewees have to use fleas for sight-range-support and can be micro'd to use their height bonus. Plus, Arm gets fleas and warriors, Core doesn't. Sounds fair to me. I say leave the discrepancy between Arm and Core raider-bots.

I know. It's just that rocket bots need LOS which is alot easier to maintain when playing core.
I don't actually think that peewee should be changed. I said that only to support my laziness and couse I'm biased towards arm.

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:lets disect some dumb shit!

Dumb in theory.

1v0ry_k1ng wrote: day or rAndy could pwn less capable players with half the number of units or with the other guy at +50% handicap, because they are EXTEMELY GOOD. its worth noting here that then being EXTEMELY GOOD has nothing to do with the power of Kbots, which is FRANKLY UNDERWELMING.

That's from my own experience. And I've actually beaten rAndy few times in my Spring career (but rly only few times).

1v0ry_k1ng wrote: No, they are alot more expensive. they cost 250% more energy/ per metal tick than a flash. what does that mean? it means while you might need 4 solars to produce flash at X metal/tick, you would need 10 solars to produce peewee at the same speed.
two diffrent resources? shit son!
the result is that you can never produce a metal cost of peewee/ak that matches the metal cost that the other guy can make flash/gator, because your energy economy will never catch up 250% unless the other guy is afk
bearing in mind the speed and HP diffrences, 2 peewee is barely the equivalent of usefulness as a flash. so this argument is teh fails1!
chain splode nerf is defo movement in the right direction, though

Ohnoes! You're talking math! When was the last time you E stalled on average map. Actually on any map that isn't SM?

1v0ry_k1ng wrote: no, vehicles need micro too. its just vs kbots the amount of micro required is comparatively less because the only effective unit is the rocko/storm and this is a low dps skirmisher.

Ofc it's micro too. Try to loosen up ur interpretations (you must be american). I'm exaggerating to make a point.
You can actually do some dmg without any micro at all when playing veh. But you'll fail miserably with bots.

1v0ry_k1ng wrote: so AK needs extra micro to be effective, plus arm gets fleas and warriors while core does not, peewee also gains range from height bonus ie, pwns ak on hill? how does that come out the other side of your statement as "sounds fair to me?" how about, "it sounds very much like arm kbots is a better lab?"

Read top replay.

1v0ry_k1ng wrote: seriously,
I get that BA = conservative
but that is no excuse to say dumb shit in its defence

Try playing BA. Don't just check Modit all day long.
Define playing: trying games ranging from 1v1 to 8v8, on many different maps.

Llamadeus wrote:<3

Thx

ginekolog wrote: +1

I also agree that kbots are playable on any map that has some hills (where they should be used). IF AK is equaly good as gator on FLAT i ll never use vehicles again.

Tiny improvements like in 6.85 are in order though.

@Noize: Ty for your awsome contributions to most balanced and fun game of TA ever! Long live BA !!!

Exactly.

pintle wrote:you realise how hilarious that sounds to anyone with much experience of say.... S44, SWIW, CA, SA, XTA, KP, EE, Gundam... I think you have far far less comparative experience than some of the people posting in this thread.

BA is one of the _most_simple_ mods, that emphasises eco/macro bruteforcing your opponents llt spam much much more than every other *a mod, and it has the lowest real unit diversity, in high lvl 1v1, of every *a mod (I wont even get into the "lol t2 is redundant" debate)

If you cannot understand how flash/gator are cheaper per unit of dps/hp than pw... wtf are you doing flaming people's ability to play in this thread?

Also, pls post a replay of you UBARMICROing your kbots thru aa truck kiting +leveller/janus rape, cos I would reallllllly love to see that.

One last point: how is making ak/pw cost balanced vs flash/gator in any way dumbing down the mod?

Sorry for sounding so combatitive in this post but well, lol, you are inferring that BA is in some way inherently more skill based than other mods...

I think I'm pretty capable of getting the big picture rather fast, so I know mod worth playing (in competitive way) when I see it.

BA is evolving for a very long time and I've been playing it for quite a while (AA).

It's simple because we play it like that. Unit are redundant because you can spam one that's easy to micro. You can spam one because your enemy just wasted 20K metal in ur doorstep.
If there's a way to evaluate skill, I would say that we reached 20% of it in competitive team games. If we wanted 100% we would use every single unit. But we don't. There are no clans, just pub games on DSD.

AA trucks are a bitch, true. There are still ways to kill them on maps that are suitable for bots. Levelers are easy job for rockets.

Flash/Gator is supposed to rape peewees. At least in my book. While peewee can run where flash can't drive. Good enough for me.

It is dumbing down the mod. Apparently we need to bring it your level, because you can't find any use for kbots.

BA and XTA are most skill dependent mods atm.

To sum up: Don't dumb down the mod. Wait for players to get skilled enough. But you have to know that Spring's pro community just died and it'll take, let's say, a year to "grow" new skill.
+ There's no absolute balance. Not even in nature.

you talk total horseshit. BA is the most skill dependant mod? fuck, arguing with you is like arguing with a child, I sure aint going to bother. my previous post still stands.

Don't be hatin' on BA because it's the most played mod. BA was originally designed for 1 v 1 gameplay, it is very skill based. Players who don't play BA wouldn't know.

I only play games where winning is based upon being an overall superior human being.

peggle?

TheFatController I just played a few sea games and I remember our discussion about floating light laser towers and how you complained you couldn't find any on unit universe.

I found a couple of models that might be useful though: http://unituniverse.com/?p=u&v=589 and http://unituniverse.com/?p=u&v=554 were originally designed as "super tidal generators" with an LLT on top - however, they look like little more than a floating LLT. If you resize them, they might just fit.

Didn't the floating llt conversation end in "maek corvette!" ?

Also, Wisse can do serious business with kbots, try playing him 1v1. And cry as much as you want, BA is / was the mod of choice for most of the really good players (yeah i know xta is cool too).

BaNa wrote:Didn't the floating llt conversation end in "maek corvette!" ?

Yeah, but that's about as coherent as saying "make flash" to deal with early game weasels.


I just had a really good game on The Rock as a sea player - namely, because I could position my LLT on the land to handle scout boats

YokoZar wrote:TheFatController I just played a few sea games and I remember our discussion about floating light laser towers and how you complained you couldn't find any on unit universe.

I found a couple of models that might be useful though: http://unituniverse.com/?p=u&v=589 and http://unituniverse.com/?p=u&v=554 were originally designed as "super tidal generators" with an LLT on top - however, they look like little more than a floating LLT. If you resize them, they might just fit.

The problem with sea games is the initial rush, right?

However, I think adding FLLTs would break the gameplay too much. The whole design of the sea-game is that it fixates on mobile units, with only rare use of statics.

I'd just give the Comm a torpedo launcher as a weapon - something that it can use to keep the scouts away from the home base and will keep him from being easy prey for Destroyers. Don't touch the other weapons - remember that boats are so expensive (other than the scouts) that even though the defenses are pricey, they're still cheaper than the units they're fighting - a torpedo launcher is cheaper than a Corvette, and you can get two FHLTs for the price of a single Destroyer.

BA is not balanced for 1v1 gameplay.
Thats why you hardly see t2 not to mention t3 in 1v1 games..
You want a balanced BA play SA.
Anyone saying BA is balanced either has a fanboi mentality or didnt play other mods much to be able to compare correctly or just a noob.

YokoZar wrote:TheFatController I just played a few sea games and I remember our discussion about floating light laser towers and how you complained you couldn't find any on unit universe.

I found a couple of models that might be useful though: http://unituniverse.com/?p=u&v=589 and http://unituniverse.com/?p=u&v=554 were originally designed as "super tidal generators" with an LLT on top - however, they look like little more than a floating LLT. If you resize them, they might just fit.

please don't post details of private discussions in this thread it will freak people out (as I was looking for models but only to run some tests).

My personal problem with Sea is that it is all about the initial rush. It IS pretty well balanced at the moment for what it is, but is 'what it is' the best gameplay you can get out of it? I don't think so personally..

At the moment I think the commander is too weak in the water, you can have underwater dgun but it's very inaccurate and can't hit amphibs (which is probably why it was disabled).