Spring RTS Engine

Shoot the com then

Pxtl wrote:Is Core going to get any special way to defend Comms, since they have no decoys? Like a hyper-armored comm-bunker that regenerates so fast it's practically indestructible, but eats energy like mad to do so? After all, AA's comms are pretty lightly armoured, and some people do play game-ends.

You can already do that, although its effectiveness is questionable:

1. Build an Intruder.
2. Put your comm inside it.
3. Hide it underwater.
4. Guard it with Muskrats.

SUBJECT TO CHANGE

The factions will not be radically different ala zerg vs terrans, but more like... eh... more like...

Well for instance, you can already see Arm specializes in support, specialization and efficiency (sniper rather than full-blown assault, FARK rather than rez, etc). Core specializes in force and versatility. The same structure might have two different purposes depending on what part of the game you're in...

The differences I'm thinking of, generally, don't mean artillery is no longer artillery. To be cryptic, units might have new uses they didn't have before, but these abilities or attributes are only helpful at different stages of the game. So you might (example out of my ass) have a unit which fires an artillery cannon but it costs too much to use that cannon early in the game. Not happening, but that's the idea.

Or you might have a unit that... hmm.... hmm... thinking of things that are examples gives me new ideas I don't want to give away

Anyway it'll still be TA. Tanks are still tanks, anti-air is still anti-air, etc. 9/10 units probably won't have any changes at all.

Not to say nanoshielding is OK or not, but look at it from another angle: While that commander is guarding the LLT, you know with an absolute certainty where he is. Therefore the rest of his base is open to rape and pillage. Moreover, 3 bombers or whatever it is, and he's out of the game. You're putting your opponent in check and holding him in position.

Or is that not the case?

Also, the change with core not getting decoys was not a rash one made at the drop of a hat, I have a plan, don't worry.

Caydr wrote:Arm specializes in specialization

^_^ Mmmk...

Caydr wrote:Or is that not the case?

Well, it's not quite as simple as 3 bombers, especially if he has all his micro focused on his com. Through a broader perspective, your change to com's nanospeed would indeed allow switching between different factory types more feasible early on [that's something to be desired].

Ok.. so arm specializes in... things which are... special. Goddammit.

Caydr wrote:Ok.. so arm specializes in... things which are... special. Goddammit.

I hope you're not implying that Core is not special...BECAUSE IT IS.

^.-

Unconventional and asymmetric warfare?

They're both speshul.

I've been called back to work early, I won't be able to finish for Wednesday after all. I'll try for monday, maybe I'll get some pictures or videos up in the meantime.

Caydr wrote:I've been called back to work early, I won't be able to finish for Wednesday after all. I'll try for monday, maybe I'll get some pictures or videos up in the meantime.

Translation: expect a release sometime in October.

Pxtl wrote:

Caydr wrote:I've been called back to work early, I won't be able to finish for Wednesday after all. I'll try for monday, maybe I'll get some pictures or videos up in the meantime.

Translation: expect a release sometime in October.

Still bettar than duke nukem.

Moreover, 3 bombers or whatever it is, and he's out of the game.

About 5, if he sits perfectly still and has no AA.

If he dodges, especially if the map is low gravity, he can keep dodging bombers prettymuch forever. You'll never kill him.

No, seriously though, com having this sort of repair speed is just Bad News. With almost no unpack time on the com it makes units near the com invincible. 10x the construction rate? Thats huge.

I mean what is the function and purpose of the change? To make the com samson-immune? To make a compush artillery-immune? To make the com better on the frontline?

The buildspeed change will do this too, BTW, you can get llts up in a snap. You wont want to keep him at home pumping stuff out of your fac because you'll just sit there stalling if you do that.

Don't be so rash. Are you talking about October of 2008 or 2009?

A 50% change in the build speed of a single unit - when people currently mass-produce nanoturrets and construction units for assistance on every project - will leave you nanostalled?

Please explain why the commander is "samson proof" with this change and why you were only every building samsons to attack commanders. Even if samsons were made totally useless against commanders, they are still very versatile units.

About 5, if he sits perfectly still and has no AA.

So now, not only is your commander effectively immobilized for the duration you're using this strategy/exploit/whatever, but you also have to be ready to micro him at any instant in the off chance he gets bombed? It's been a while since I played, but I thought your time and attention was also a finite resource.

So in order for this nanoshielding thing to be viable, you must A) voluntarily pin down your commander and inform your enemy of his exact location, B) be ready to micro him at any moment while simultaneously building a base with a fraction of your previous building power and also fending off raids, C) leave the most powerful nuke in the game sitting on your front line which needs only 5 bombers to go off, D) deprive yourself of your commander's building/repairing ability elsewhere, E) leave your base without your D-Gun's protection at a critical early point in the game where you are most vulnerable to raids, F) Waste resources (including valuable construction unit time) building anti-air where you might not normally need to to guard your commander, G) Allow your opponent to gain the upper hand using the commander's newfound building power in more useful ways, such as making a functioning economy.

And the payoff is, you somewhat block your enemy's progress down a single land route to your base. This is an exploit?

The reason for the repair/building ability is the same reason commanders are already able to build so fast. You get one of them. If you want to risk him on the front line, go right ahead. For the rest of the game you'll need 13 fragile instagib farks (if you're ARM, if you're core you're in worse shape) clogging up your base in order to match the repair ability you lost. Just be careful nothing ever explodes in your base, since a slight breeze will make them melt down.

Please explain why a commander being able to build 50% faster will alleviate the resource strain that building a bunch of LLTs brings with it. Or how LLTs are suddenly something that will stop any attack. If you're wasting 50% more resources building 50% more LLTs, I'm going to spend 50% more resources on artillery and have 50% less casualties and you won't be able to do anything about it because the 50% of your economy that was meant for an army went to now-useless LLTs instead.

On the subject of nanoshielding again, if you're playing such a sh!tty map that you only have one way to attack your opponent, the mod is not to blame for it being a crummy game experience.

Caydr wrote:Truths

Ya, what he said...

more bats.

So now, not only is your commander effectively immobilized for the duration you're using this strategy/exploit/whatever, but you also have to be ready to micro him at any instant in the off chance he gets bombed? It's been a while since I played, but I thought your time and attention was also a finite resource.

a finite resource if you have a average of 20 apm and the reaction time of a drooling retard in a wheelchair.

So in order for this nanoshielding thing to be viable, you must A) voluntarily pin down your commander and inform your enemy of his exact location

pin down?

B) be ready to micro him at any moment while simultaneously building a base with a fraction of your previous building power and also fending off raids

the thing you forget is that you dont have +30 metal income from the beginning, and you cant use that buildpower unless you have enough metal income.

Also "fending off raids" is not has hard as you make it sound, 2 llts in a well planned base is enough to make it ak/pw/wezel proof

C) leave the most powerful nuke in the game sitting on your front line which needs only 5 bombers to go off

this is only true if the other guy goes AIR FIRST, in which case YOU AUTOMATICALLY WIN.

Also, bomber's buildtime is 10k, defender is somewhere around 1k, and costs roughly 70 metal.

D) deprive yourself of your commander's building/repairing ability elsewhere

what is this "elsewhere" ?

E) leave your base without your D-Gun's protection at a critical early point in the game where you are most vulnerable to raids,

you dont need a Dgun to protect your base from fucking 70 hp weasels.

F) Waste resources (including valuable construction unit time) building anti-air where you might not normally need to to guard your commander

no

G) Allow your opponent to gain the upper hand using the commander's newfound building power in more useful ways, such as making a functioning economy.

yes and the opponent magically conjures up +20 metal income to support this buildpower yet again.

And the payoff is, you somewhat block your enemy's progress down a single land route to your base. This is an exploit?

The payoff is that you will get the metal from the middle, as there are a lot of maps with "rush the middle metal depos" metal layouts.

While the enemy uses his Insane buildpower to build storms/flash with his 6.2 metal income, youll be building rockos/gater with several cons assisting with 18 metal income.

The reason for the repair/building ability is the same reason commanders are already able to build so fast. You get one of them. If you want to risk him on the front line, go right ahead. For the rest of the game you'll need 13 fragile instagib farks (if you're ARM, if you're core you're in worse shape) clogging up your base in order to match the repair ability you lost. Just be careful nothing ever explodes in your base, since a slight breeze will make them melt down.

13 fragile instagib t2 assist cons OR a few t1 nanotowers?

Please explain why a commander being able to build 50% faster will alleviate the resource strain that building a bunch of LLTs brings with it.

because commpushing is a immense metal income boon, the comm isnt simply walking into mordor, he's building a pathway of mex and llt and radars into mordor.

Or how LLTs are suddenly something that will stop any attack. If you're wasting 50% more resources building 50% more LLTs, I'm going to spend 50% more resources on artillery and have 50% less casualties

a LLT costs 83 metal, a artillery tank costs 150 metal. you will need 3-4 artillery tanks to bring down ONE(1) LLT repaired by the commander.

Thats 450m used against 83m

and you won't be able to do anything about it because the 50% of your economy that was meant for an army went to now-useless LLTs instead.

and you wont be able to achieve jack shit because you built wolverines with your 6 metal income while the other guy made 40 gater with his +20 metal income and analraped you without lube

While I think Sleksa's position is a bit extreme a buffed com IS a major asset. Yes, pushing will be mandatory (well, it probably is already...) especially since the better buildpower and repair should allow easier fortification and holding of forward positions so if a player doesn't push he risks having two thirds or more of the map being unreachable soon because his opponent can fortify it easily. The com is very vulnerable to defenses IIRC so once a frontline is drawn you need other units to move it again. Buffed com = more units needed to move the line again since it'll be harder to destroy any defenses the com is repairing. And just think of the effect on defense-to-defense shootouts...

Sleksa wrote:

Or how LLTs are suddenly something that will stop any attack. If you're wasting 50% more resources building 50% more LLTs, I'm going to spend 50% more resources on artillery and have 50% less casualties

a LLT costs 83 metal, a artillery tank costs 150 metal. you will need 3-4 artillery tanks to bring down ONE(1) LLT repaired by the commander.

Thats 450m used against 83m

So what? One LLT gaurded by the commander himself taking 450m to take down without getting hurt isn't that bad. And why are you attacking the LLT when you could be attacking the com. He can't use that repairspeed on himself.

lurker wrote:And why are you attacking the LLT when you could be attacking the com. He can't use that repairspeed on himself.

He can turn around, walk away and let you have fun with his LLT?

Real problem (useless comm in late-game game-continues), bad solution. While there are workarounds to commpushing (like a short nanolathe and lots of arty), none are perfect, and all depend on the all-or-nothing battle against the comm. Even if there are counters, comm-pushing is still the primary strategy. A gamble yes, but the only way to win is to gamble. Rather than arguing about balance, let's think about gameplay - more BT for the comm means more comm-pushing gameplay. Counterable, balanced or not, that's annoying, isn't it?

Imho, a better solution to make the late-game comm more of an asset would be to include comm-upgrades (unlocked at L2?), and nerf the comm-boom (at least, both of these only in continues games). Otherwise, the comm is a liability in your base - a massive weakspot. You want him out of there.

Either way, the boom is his liability - in late game, his only asset is as a nanolathe..... in which case he's no more or less important than a stack of cons or a nanotowers of a given size. So he needs in-game on-the-fly upgrades to actually keep him up-to-date as an asset instead of a liability or "just another unit". In that case, the question becomes what upgrades? Energy? If you could build fusions inside the comm, that would be handy - a mobile, cloakable fusion... but all your eggs are in one basket then. Likewise for deflector-shields, or nanotowers, or whatever.

Then, the comm becomes useful - he's a mobile resource base. You keep him around for the resources he provides. The player _can_ ignore him and stick to static buildings, or they can invest in him. Features that, if you put up-front, would horribly imbalance him (as people complained about the idea of beefing the comm-nano).

Just a thought.