Spring RTS Engine

Boirunner wrote:

neddiedrow wrote:Your statements would be valid six or eight months ago, Boi, but no longer!

i am willing to accept that i am wrong. please list me (or link me too) some major things that are possible in spring but not used in ta mods.

Heh, wow...


...

Lots.

That isn't the deal, Boi.

How about things that don't appear in the OTA engine?
1. Area Commands
2. Wait Orders
3. Experience Based Upgrades
4. Points/Map Drawing
5. Seismic

There you go, five features, five seconds.

neddiedrow wrote:That isn't the deal, Boi.

How about things that don't appear in the OTA engine?
1. Area Commands
2. Wait Orders
3. Experience Based Upgrades
4. Points/Map Drawing
5. Seismic

There you go, five features, five seconds.

That's not really fair - 3 of those features were invented as augmentations of TA, and have nothing to do with distinguishing Spring/TA from Spring/othermods.

I'll give you Seismic, but it's an extension from the TA-style cloaking system. Experience-based upgrades are an extension from the TA-style experience system.

Things like the resource system, the detection (sans-seismic), the whole family of Nanolathe-based features (repair/build/capture/reclaim/assist) are all still extremely TA-like in handling, and very distinct from the behaviour of other RTS games.

I agree that Spring is getting better, but fundamentally every current Spring mod could be almost completely implemented in TA without changing much gameplay.

Fanger wrote:Fuel, and more than 3 weapons, custom FX explosions, get-set speed.. when the next version goes out even more will exist...

ok, i'll grant you fuel. custom fx explosions has nothing to do with gameplay, and i'm sorry but i don't know what get-set speed is.

concerning the other list, i'm pxtl said it well.

Pxtl;

Nanoblobs - mobiles building mobiles.

How about things that don't appear in the OTA engine?

mainWeaponDir tags or several other patches and so forth. The entire particle system (explosion generator), this was not present in OTA.

Etcetera...

Boirunner wrote:custom fx explosions has nothing to do with gameplay,

Wrong, I can call weapon effects from a script using the custom explosion generator and so forth to do things I could not do in TA, this is not utilized in TA mods..

Without giving too much away, it's certainly now possible to do something that was often desired in TA but wasn't possible, and now is, that will have a large effect on how units are used, and hence, gameplay.


Not sure if we are going ahead with it now though. Spiked thinks it might be a bit too much.

DEAR GOD BOIRUNNER!



THINGS NOT IN TA:
LIMITED UNIT FIRE ARCS!

VARIABLE SPEED VIA SCRIPT

GUNDAM MUTATORS

THE POSSIBILITY OF SUPER HUGE UNITS(SEE EPIC COMMANDER)

AIRCRAFT THAT NEVER LAND(SEE EPIC COMMANDER)

FIRE PLATFORMS THAT ARE NOT AIRBASES!

SEISMIC DETECTION

THE ABILITY TO ZOOM OUT ALLOWING LARGER RANGES

GLOW MAPS, UVMAPS, REFLECTIVE MAPS

UNIT LIMITS(ALLOWING HERO UNITS!)

INDIRECT FIRE WEAPONS

LINE MOVE ORDERS!

UNITS THAT DO NOT SHOOT THROUGH EACH OTHER

VARIABLE AIRCRAFT HEIGHT

WEAPONS THAT ONLY TARGET ONE CLASS OF UNIT!

EFFECTS, EFFECTS, EFFECTS

CUSTOM LUA WIDGETS

GROUP AIS!

The list goes on and on. Spring is an open source engine! It is not a game! THERE IS NOT GAME PACKAGE! THERE IS NOT BASE FOR IT TO BE A TC. I AM MAKING A GAME! At any point in time I could split off of the main engine and make gundam it's own deal but I LOVE the fact that gundam and so many other games can play in one engine in one community. THAT is why I want a distinction made.

GUNDAM IS A GAME! It is part of the game selection for the spring engine. Just as all of the other open engine based games are. *edit* oh and here is a news flash, if I sat down and made another *mod/TC *... there is nothing stopping me from selling it as long as I obey GPL! THIS IS A FUCKING ENGINE!

in spring, you can only use the TA resource system.

OH OH OH, I am going to my lan party... I am going to keep getting pissed. Yeah, gundam's ECON is soo like TA THAT ALL THE TIME I HEAR HOW EASY IT IS TO TRANSITION! Hell, have you EVER played gundam! The resource setup would not work in TA! I know, I had to spend a month making it work in spring!


btw, enjoy your chess TC called TA. By your logic all rts games are TCs of chess.

*edit* adding this in because you completely ignored this:

zwzsg wrote:

I don't think that the term tc is at all derogatory.

Yet it is. For instance no one would pay for Doom's Alien TC, even though it was sooo good and faithful to the movie. But a lower quality game labelled as a retail game would have sold .... I don't know the figures, but the awful Corridor 7 sold.

If you design a game, then build an engine around the game concept to fit it perfectly, then you made a game. If you take an engine, and build a game within the range of possibilities that engine offers, you made a tc (because the engine was built around a different game concept - TA in this case).

Like I said, Smoth also made changes in the C++ engine source code that he needed for his mod. And many commercial games companies buy an engine license, build a game with the range of possibilities it offers, and sell it. And sometimes it shows that the engine wasn't that adapted and that they were limited.

Pxtl wrote:the whole family of Nanolathe-based features (repair/build/capture/reclaim/assist) are all still extremely TA-like in handling, and very distinct from the behaviour of other RTS games.

Of those: repair/assist/build are aspects of many other rts games

Which leaves capture. Neither gundam NOR EE use that.

POOF distinction gone. oh, and I removed reclaim of living buildings because I am going to implement a sell button in lua when 75b1 comes out. All that is left is corpse reclaiming.

soooo stuck in ta.

*deep breath*

Fire arcs
More than 3 weapons per unit
more 256 weapons and units
more than 4 possible sides
UV maps, textures, glowmaps etc
3d camera
deformable terrian
groundplates
script-firable weapons
veterancy you can fiddle with (script wise, though this may be the next version)
Scriptable moving speeds
Trajectories
Ability to detect what weapon hit the unit (next version)
Aircraft that never land
Rediculously large units
Seismic detection
Shields / Deflectors
Impulse / units going flying
Fiddlable repairing / reclaiming etc etc
Team Colour choosing
Optional Nano-spray
Scriptable SFX
LUA UI + Widgets
All the LUA stuff that will be possible next version
Zoom
Maps that aren't tile-based (TA maps always looked blocky, except for Bryce maps - which tended to be huge in filesize)
Unit Limits
Planes that land on the water's surface
Buildings building buildings
mobiles building mobiles (although the AI could do it in TA, the player couldn't)
Unit Icons
Nuke subs
Area Commands
Line Commands
Repeat Commands
Wait Commands
Units in construction can be given orders
Moddable FF
Probably something else as well

Well, to see how they should be called, let's see how do people from other community call that sort of thing. The closest equivalent of Spring I know, that is, an open source RTS engine initially made to play content from a commercial RTS but that also now handle many thing-we-arguing-over-how-to-name, is FreeCraf...err Stratagus. Not that I ever played it, just heard of it. So let's see how they word it: http://www.stratagus.org Crap looks like Smoth is right! They call them "Games" and not "Mods". This annoys me because imo it would have been better to not ignore that for instance EE and 1944 are closer siblings than, let's say, Unreal and Deux Ex. Heck, all spring's mod share the same instance of the same exe, the same maps, same lobby, etc... (which is a good thing btw).

Strategus, a game made to play warcraft II.... yet it has it's own games that run readily in it. Makes you go HMMM?

• How many people would download spring for a bunch of TA MODS!?!
  How many people would download spring for a bunch of included GAMES and some TA mods!?!

Key points!

Another key point is that with the coming 75b1 lua scripts *mods* are REALLY going to start having serious distinctions. Mappers are already starting to have to consider TA:Styled Mod/gundam/EE/kernal panic as sepperate needs! Given lua, you will begin to see new features that will be specific to certain mods.

the distiction between modified TA content and games that run in the spring engine HAS TO START!

Heck, all spring's mod share the same instance of the same exe, the same maps, same lobby, etc... (which is a good thing btw).

Another that makes spring wonderful, in the same lobby, I can play gundam or TA, EE or starwars, Kernal panic or 1944, THIS IS SOMETHING I HAVE NEVER EXPERIENCED BEFORE AND AM EXCITED TO BE A PART OF!

mm, I can just imagine a gundam building vanishing into a big golden cloud with dollar signs floating around then quickly fading away a second later, all with a delightful poof and a jingling of coins!

I was thinking more a tear down anim.

Guessmyname wrote:*deep breath*
long list of stuff

i don't think we are talking about the same thing

these are all minor improvements and changes of the engine. the core gameplay stays the same. don't you see? adding a different shot vector or changing some feature there or here does not make or break the game! the only thing in your list that actually changes the game in a fundamental way is the unit limits. the rest are just improvements on the concept, not changes in it.

fundamentals are things like how many resource types there are, if you need houses for your soldiers, if you can upgrade units, how building works, if there is a power system, if there are workers/drones, in what way terrain control is encforces (it at all), if resources are finite or not, how the map behaves, how the build menu works (sidebar, select factory, ...).

think about how starcraft differs from warcraft III differs from age of empires II differs from homeworld differs from command & conquer II differs from generals differs from company of heroes differs from rome: total war differs from, yes, total annihilation. now those are different games.

do you see what i mean? those are the things that define how a RTS game works, and is different from other RTS games. and all major mods in spring share the exact same system of things mentioned above. ee is a lot closer to xta than any of the games listed above is to any other game listed above.

if spring was an open RTS platform, you could decide to use any - or at least some - different styles mentioned above. but you can't. you are limited to the one TA used.

thus, claiming the spring and ta have nothing to do with each other is simply wrong. spring took the ta game concept, and made something more out of it. but essentially, it remains the same.

i mean, i tried gundam for the first time today. it was actually kinda cool. but essentially, it's just TA again. it has different balance, different emphasis and stuff. but the basiscs are the exact same. you have the metalspots, the mexes, the powerplants, the metal makers, the t1 builders that build the t2 units, the t2 builders that build the t3 units, the commanders, the nanolathe, the assist-building, the bots and vehicles. the same thing holds true for ee. the mods play very differently, up to a point. but in the end, they are very similar.

Guessmyname wrote:*deep breath*

Fire arcs
More than 3 weapons per unit
more 256 weapons and units
more than 4 possible sides
UV maps, textures, glowmaps etc
3d camera
deformable terrian
groundplates
script-firable weapons
veterancy you can fiddle with (script wise, though this may be the next version)
Scriptable moving speeds
Trajectories
Ability to detect what weapon hit the unit (next version)
Aircraft that never land
Rediculously large units
Seismic detection
Shields / Deflectors
Impulse / units going flying
Fiddlable repairing / reclaiming etc etc
Team Colour choosing
Optional Nano-spray
Scriptable SFX
LUA UI + Widgets
All the LUA stuff that will be possible next version
Zoom
Maps that aren't tile-based (TA maps always looked blocky, except for Bryce maps - which tended to be huge in filesize)
Unit Limits
Planes that land on the water's surface
Buildings building buildings
mobiles building mobiles (although the AI could do it in TA, the player couldn't)
Unit Icons
Nuke subs
Area Commands
Line Commands
Repeat Commands
Wait Commands
Units in construction can be given orders
Moddable FF
Probably something else as well

Fire arcs-
Now we can have higher ranged weapons that shoot over our forces, previously impossible, a large change to me.

More than 3 weapons per unit-
Now, we can have more varied units, units with guns and melee attacks, units with MULTIPLE DAMAGING ATTACKS....

more 256 weapons and units-
More units per mod and more weapons per unit = win

more than 4 possible sides-
Now we can have inter-universial races

UV maps, textures, glowmaps etc-
Greatly increase our graphical potential

3d camera-
Another big hit on improving graphics

deformable terrian-
Pretty damn sweet and.. O.o Whaddya know, we could have a mod that means you need to actively repair the ground or else your units can't navigate, sounds so similar to TA

groundplates-
Another decently cool graphical effect

script-firable weapons-
HELL YA, WE JUST KILLED SOMETHING! *Does cheer from conscripts in RA2 and shoots Ak into air!* So, I guess that was possible on TA

veterancy you can fiddle with (script wise, though this may be the next version)-
Now, we can have better units get better weapons, not upgrades, just getting something more fitting, instead of the "I make 25 kills and get 25 times as accurate *buzzsaw*"

Scriptable moving speeds-
oh noez, I used to move sooo slow under water, when I was meant TO MOVE FAST IN THE DAMN WATER! I guess there is not a difference here either

Trajectories-
Ditto as fire arc

Ability to detect what weapon hit the unit (next version)-
The ability to have infantry fall in half when something large hits them, or get knocked down... Or just slow down a little from a bullet... More possibilites, nope

Aircraft that never land-
Wow, guess this makes no difference whatsoever... I mean, who woulda thought helecopters weren't supposed to land in hostile territory

Rediculously large units-
Wow, no super units for us, nope, no sirree...

Seismic detection-
Well, units giving detection based on size, THIS IS NOT IN ANY OTHER DAMN GAME I KNOW!

Shields / Deflectors-
Such an open and easy way to use shields, these are a LARGE improvement over TA

Impulse / units going flying-
Basic physics, not bad, and kinda simulates some other things.

Fiddlable repairing / reclaiming etc etc-
Well, this must be a small change too? eh?

Team Colour choosing-
Not sure what GMN is referring to... Maybe nano particles?

Optional Nano-spray-
Not everybody wants nanospray, so some poeple substitute their own

Scriptable SFX-
Wow, this is such a small change, it shouldn't even be mentioned

LUA UI + Widgets-
Smallest changes in the world huh!?

All the LUA stuff that will be possible next version-
Yet again, very small stuff, huh?

Maps that aren't tile-based (TA maps always looked blocky, except for Bryce maps - which tended to be huge in filesize)-
Good maps now...

Unit Limits-
Super units, with limits, I am so sure TA had this

Planes that land on the water's surface-
Sure as hell wasn't in TA huh?

Buildings building buildings-
This is an interesting thing we can have :D

mobiles building mobiles (although the AI could do it in TA, the player couldn't)-
A kinda small change that can make a world of difference...

Unit Icons-
Ohhh! I guess SupCom doesn't have this feature, huh? I thought we had nothing modern stuff does...

Nuke subs-
Ahahaha, nothing like a hardly detectable nuke launching battle sub. I know they had these in TA

Area Commands-
Kill everything in the area, guard everything within this radius, much easier to eat a group of trees when you can do this...

Line Commands-
Don't remember what this is, sorry...

Repeat Commands-
Tired of clicking to build, look no further.

Wait Commands-
Wait here, nuff said.

Units in construction can be given orders-
No more watching something til its done being built, give it an order and move on.

Moddable FF-
FF must be Friendly Fire, in this case, extremely varying from TA..

Now, I move to your post!

these are all minor improvements and changes of the engine. the core gameplay stays the same. don't you see? adding a different shot vector or changing some feature there or here does not make or break the game! the only thing in your list that actually changes the game in a fundamental way is the unit limits. the rest are just improvements on the concept, not changes in it.

Are not concepts everything?

fundamentals are things like how many resource types there are,

Look to lua...

houses for your soldiers

Lua to set the limit of soldiers based on houses.

if you can upgrade units

We do indeed have that, and will have a little bit more usage of it soon, too.

how building works

Like it shows the building building a unit, non nano? Thats just how lazy the modder is, and how the mod is layed out.

there is a power system

Check for range withing a power building, if not, force it off.

if there are workers/drones

Using AF and his no building thing, we could have men with hammers building a building while it rises from the ground, or has its own animation.
And lua can get if a unit is nearby and have drones move to its location (I think)

in what way terrain control is encforces

Terrain control? How can we NOT have it? Metal spots, extractable resources, we need to control some terrain in every mod. Or maybe you are talking about like Empire earth 2 and its provinces etc.

if resources are finite or not

We can easily control this, why would we make anything cost for a resource that is infinite...?

how the map behaves

Gaia AI. 'Nuff said.

how the build menu works

Uhhhh, lua, much?


I hope I ain't too late, I hope I got my points across that LUA has a lot of customization for the engine, and OSRTS is going to kick ass.

That does not make it TA or a TA total conversion. That means the engine is very similar to TA's functionality because it was based on TA.

In the next version of spring, I will not give you any of my plans but yeah, it is going to be different. Lua is the bridge to a gap that we have had for some time. No offense boirunner but you are entirely too ignorant of spring to say that it is not going to surpass total annihilation. You say that there are no devs working on spring but what you fail to understand is that there is some very serious work being done.

What you fail to understand is that in the next version of spring 3rd, 4th, 5th etc resources are possible! Units that can be sold ala other rts games... farms ala warcraftI/II/III. Tech research is all POSSIBLE!

Speed control, and giant units alone change the gameplay of spring. Features like the line move order, area attack, the repeat command and fuel should not so quickly be dismissed. Just because you do not understand what they mean and are only looking at it on the surface level does not make it any less valid to those of us who see what spring really is capable.

Spring is BEYOND TA already Whether or not you realize it, I really wonder if you really fully understand English because you do not seem to comprehend all of the stuff we are telling you. I mean you no offense in this but it seems as though you are having difficulty understanding us and difficulty expressing your thoughts.

Team-colouring in TA was choosing from a number (12 I think) of colours. In Spring, you can choose custom colours

Some other stuff I thought of:
Beamlasers
Start boxes
D-gun limiting
Ghost buildings
Jammers jam your radar too
Start boxes
Shared Commanders
Mutators
Fuel
Wobble effect with missiles
Build anims
Death anims

An example of Spring > TA: A combination of script-firable weapons, scriptable moving speeds and the HitByWeaponID() thing means that I can (and have) implement the GW tank rules (penetration, damage effects such as immobilisation etc)

Mod of your "simply improvements" argument falls down for this reason:
They only appear to you as improvements because you have not tried a mod that actually incorporates them into their gameplay. Most TA don't, but...

EE: Hub system, which is not possible in TA. Nuke subs, which are not possible in TA. A lot of units also have over 3 weapons. Fuel. EE's implementation of Rocket units also are also impossible in TA. Probably some other stuff too - ask Fang

Gundam: Hero units are not possible in TA. Firearcs are possible in TA, but it requires a lot of scripting and is very buggy. Epic Commanders / Tiny Coms mutators are not possible in TA, amphib mechs move faster underwater, that Zeon transport that units can fire from, Xamels, the Hover Truck (seismic). Probably some other stuff too - ask Smoth

Epic Legions: Firearcs, mobiles building mobiles, buildings building buildings, shields (not actually ingame yet - it's a planned psyker power, whose user hasn't been made yet - Eldar Farseer), Thunderhawk transporter (damn large, amongst other things), most of the Landraiders, Melta weaponry (double damage at half range), Plasma weaponry (unstable and prone to exploding and killing the user), Assualt Cannons (prone to jamming issues), melee (admittedly, this doesn't work too well in Spring either...), scale, most psyker abilities, Space Marines inability to reclaim or repair units, infantry being able to build flags, but not con-assist / do anything else construction-wise, Tank armour penetration, Whirlwinds, Landspeeders

S44: Lots of things - ask Nemo (I don't know all the details myself)

SWS: I'd list all the SWS stuff if I was allowed to.

Most TA mods (AA/BA/XTA): Shields. That's about it. The most innovative and fun TA mod is NOTA.

EDIT: To be fair, there are some TA things I miss. For example, the weapons system was more abstract. For example, you could have ballistic lasers (think WD tracers) and missiles could be innacurate. In addition, aircraft AI is far superior in TA than in Spring...

User created skirmish AIs, linux support, proper mod management, texture splattering, configurable ambient lighting, particle systems, water renderers, jpeg/gif/dds/pcx texture support, uvmaps.