Spring RTS Engine

It's hardly like we are the first WW2 game to do this.

tombom wrote:

Anyway, smoth, two things. First, like Felix said, if the lack of one particular simplistic symbol is enough to eradicate all of your imaginative ability, then you have my condolences -- I can only imagine you must have had a hard childhood with such a diminutive mind. Secondly, I don't particularly appreciate your fucking overzealous attitude towards having your beloved fucking swastika emblazened upon everything German in the game. It's raised serious questions in my mind about what kind of person you are, and frankly, if my new-found suspicions about you are correct, then I don't want you near this fucking game. This game is not for bed-wetting blonde kids to use as mental masturbation for their sick racial fantasies and under no circumstances will I allow it to be used in that form. I've already had to deal with enough fucking idiot fascist-wannabe kids and quite frankly I'm going to start simply telling each and every one of them to fuck off, including you, if that's the case.

Now you can either deal with not having your fucking swastikas and live peacefully in the knowledge that people (LIKE ME) will be able to play this game without being offended on a depth you can probably never begin to imagine, or you can not play the fucking game. Simple as that.

PS: Please remove the giant fucking swastika from your earlier post and provide it in link form. I do not appreciate it at all.

The Soviets killed millions of people, and Mao killed millions more. But I'm sure you're fine with that because they're you're heroes right?

You sicken me.

The British Empire killed plenty in it's time, and the US's war record stands for itself.

Spiked's ideals are not at question here. We made a decision. A decision many ww2 game makers have made before. End of discussion. Any further posts on this subject in this thread will be deleted.

It's up to the mod makers what they stuff in their games, and lets face it: It's not vitally important whether the mod has swastikas in or not. The game will not implode without them. The seas with not boil. Zombie Hitler will not rise from his grave in indignation (despite his corpse being burned, as I recall...). Conversely, if they were in, people wouldn't be instantaneously mind-warped into becoming nazis and zombie Hitler would not rise from his grave believing that the time was right for another shot at world takeover (with zombies). It doesn't matter

Admittedly, World War Two with zombies in would be very entertaining (and very gory if the Hellsing manga is anything to go by), but I digress...

This is why I like to make mods about things that havent/couldnt happen.. that take place in the future or in some alternate universe.. it lets me completely avoid this nonsense..

I dont really see it as an Issue.. Company of Heroes didnt include it.. and honestly the whole BE UTTERLY HISTORICALLY ACCURATE Bawwing that insues after people do or dont include something is mildly annoying.. but meh..

Eh, onoez, this may be deleted, I feel like posting anyways, just to get it out of my system.

The swastika was mostly ceremonial, the army carried the iron cross into combat. It doesn't make much sense to bring the flag for ceremonies to combat.

SpikedHelmet wrote:Well, like I kind of said earlier, I played around with several variations, including the standard flag of Germany (red field, white circle, black cross) and it didn't turn out very pleasing to the eye. The Kriegsmarine ensign is, atleast, an interesting design.

The other flag is still nazi. If you are going to avoid the nazi reference, do so fully.

If I wanted to do that, I wouldn't include Germany at all, and just have the US, British and Soviets fighting themselves. It's simply that one, single symbol.

Quoting because there is like a page of drama etc..

SpikedHelmet wrote:including the standard flag of Germany (red field, white circle, black cross) and it didn't turn out very pleasing to the eye.

Do you still have a copy of this one? If it is no trouble could you post it?

The reason I was so polarized about that flag is to me the flag is one of nazi germany's flags so I see nazi but like I said the cross is a bit off esp because it looks like the angry pulsing blood vessels used in anime.. link

It would be cool to see a more generic german flag, so I would think more germany and not nazis.

smoth wrote:...SS units would make an interesting morale destroyer. The pictures I have seen of those guys look fucking scary.

I doubt that. From what I know, Soviet troops at least (not sure about Allies) were well aware of what SS did on the occupied lands, and those were homeland for most of Soviet soldiers, too. So, on seeing SS personnel, they would try to kill them right now, by any means possible, 'take no prisoners' (in fact there was an order by Stalin to NOT take prisoner soldiers of certain SS divisions, can't remember exactly which ones though. Those were to be killed on sight).

That is interesting, so would some armies be stronger versus ss troops? that would be an interesting dynamic.

If that were true, why would anyone bother building SS though?

Regardless of the reaction of enemy troops, the SS where known for fighting fanatically themselves, they were ideologically indoctrinated. Altough the SS were recruited from many nationalities and came in widely different varietes to say the least, some where of shitty quality.

The SS was also cabable of carrying out dirty work such as executing people in conquered areas and running the concentration camps, thanks to this fanatical nazi indoctrination.

Conversely, if they were in, people wouldn't be instantaneously mind-warped into becoming nazis and zombie Hitler would not rise from his grave believing that the time was right for another shot at world takeover

Nobody said anything about instantaneous mind-warping Nazi zombies. GTFU!

You people need to learn to accept the ommission of a single hooked cross symbol. It's also a little ironic, because the flag has been void of swastikas for a year now, and people are just complaining about it now?

Anyway here's a diff version based more on the national flag:

I get the impression that the "kriegsmarine" or similar type flag would be typically put on top of a command bunker (IE the german HQ), while perhaps a flag raised to signify an area being taken would be the national one?

A possible solution to having "offensive" and "nonoffensive" flags could be to have 2 widgets rendering the flags. The nonoffensive would be on by default, and if someone wishes for the swastikas and everything, he could turn on the other widget instead (wich would be identical just referencing to other textures). The main motivation for taking the effort and making this would of course be to have more nicely animated flags, with this option more of a bonus.

Warlord Zsinj wrote:RPS gameplay FTL?

for those who don't follow: Rock paper scissors...



Well, it would only be the russians who would be lol kill mode at the SS. Was thinking more along the lines of a neat little thing to add in. There is no one counter to be built but if you were playing against russians it would be neat if they had a different psychology and stronger morale.

Wasn't thinking RPS but it would be neat if I couldn't fuck with the morale of russians. However, the rest, like say americans would be a bit more weak to psychology.

As far as the flag, I was thinking the old one was temporary and thus I didn't care.

Even though some units would be more powerful than usual against SS - different divisions of the SS, even... we could still have the SS retain an advantage one for one, if we decided to do this.

Would require a lot of work for a little historical accuracy, and isn't feasible in multiplayer, but I kind of like it.

Actually, in multiplayer, there could be an facility that produces SS squads, with a random designator for nationality...

yuritch wrote:

smoth wrote:...SS units would make an interesting morale destroyer. The pictures I have seen of those guys look fucking scary.

I doubt that. From what I know, Soviet troops at least (not sure about Allies) were well aware of what SS did on the occupied lands, and those were homeland for most of Soviet soldiers, too. So, on seeing SS personnel, they would try to kill them right now, by any means possible, 'take no prisoners' (in fact there was an order by Stalin to NOT take prisoner soldiers of certain SS divisions, can't remember exactly which ones though. Those were to be killed on sight).

Well, if I recall, those to be killed on sight were either Germanic or Soviet in origin - Ukrainian, Russian, German, Austrian?

Some things about the SS:

1) The SS was a large organization. Yes, they were the ones that rounded up Jews to be sent to concentration camps. However, and this is the important point, the SS that we're talking about is the Waffen-SS, which was the war-fighting SS. The Waffen-SS wasn't in charge of committing atrocities.

2) The Waffen-SS was a large and varied organization. Germany's best and worst soldiers were in the SS - the 5.SS-Panzer-Division "Wiking" was one of Germany's best divisions (and incidentally has one of the cleanest war records as far as treatment of prisoners and civilians). On the other hand, 13.Waffen-Gebergs-Division der SS "Handschar" (a Croatian and Muslim unit) suffered mass desertions and a brief mutiny.

3) The good Waffen-SS divisions were the elite forces of the Wehrmacht in 1944. There were also divisions that fought just as well as the SS divisions - Panzer Lehr on the western front, for example - but generally the SS divisions were considered the shock troops of the German armed forces as were used as such.

4) Since the Waffen-SS were considered elite, they received better equipment, were supplied better and more consistently, and had the first pick of recruits. This explains much of why they fought better in general. Personally, I feel that it has more to do with these factors, and with the pride and espirit de corps associated with being in an elite unit, than with any "indoctrination in Nazi ideology" factors. Somehow, I just can't accept the argument that being indoctrinated in Nazi ideology makes one a superior soldier - that sounds like just the sort of thing a Nazi would believe.

No idea but that sounds really cool! I know that this discussion is way out on left field here but having a limited build set of units that can have superior stats is a neat thing. I added it in gundam because having a small group of elites is a neat concept to me. I have no certainty on what group of SS I saw was whom but they looked mean as all get out.

smoth wrote:No idea but that sounds really cool! I know that this discussion is way out on left field here but having a limited build set of units that can have superior stats is a neat thing. I added it in gundam because having a small group of elites is a neat concept to me. I have no certainty on what group of SS I saw was whom but they looked mean as all get out.

I pushed pretty strongly for the inclusion of the Waffen-SS (including some restructuring of the German build tree to reflect that the SS generally got better equipment) some time ago, but IIRC neither Spiked nor Flozi liked the idea, and Nemo was unconvinced.

The thing about special units is that they are different and people get a bit of a reaction when they realize not only is it unitX but it is SPECIAL unitX and they know it is going to hurt even more. Oh well, can't win em' all I suppose. It is neat to discuss the idea though.