Spring RTS Engine

Posted: **28 Nov 2006, 19:35**

sweet sweet britan. I used to go to school armed to the teeth as most my year consisted of a huge youth drug racket. groups of teenagers with hoodies over their faces, pockets full of weed and baseball bats mean leaving the house after dark in the fens = no thanks. I turned a bunch of them in and got them expelled in like end of year 9. my life was shadowed by gangs until secondary finally ended. the law system licks balls.

Posted: **28 Nov 2006, 22:24**

Look at our statistics on reported violent crime. Enough said.

I personally love wandering in Britain. Outside of the tube stations, nobody ever bothered me.

Posted: **29 Nov 2006, 02:54**

SpikedHelmet wrote:Okay so I thought about it for about 60 seconds, and I realized, why waste time trying to develop our own unit icons? Militaries have, for hundreds of years, used a system of standardized symbols to represent unit types, from air defense to anti-tank, armour and infantry, cavalry/recon and engineer.

I don't know why I didn't think of it earlier. TBH I feel quite stupid. In any case, here's a quick sample of unit symbols:

And they have a neat way of denoting group size by the symbol above the icon. See http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/army/unit/index.html

` = individual
`` = team
* = squad (*=solid dot)
** = section
*** = platoon/detachment
I = company/battery/troop
II = battalion/squadron
III = regiment/group
X = brigade
XX = division
XXX = corps
XXXX = numbered army
XXXXX = theater

Posted: **29 Nov 2006, 03:15**

I'm quite familiar with NATO standard symbols and even have a set of icons for AA based on them drawn up on paper.

Posted: **29 Nov 2006, 04:02**

There's a difference between NATO standard and those used by the belligerents in WW2.. those symbols I put up were based on NATO which is historically incorrect. I've found accurate symbols for WW2 US symbols but I'm still looking for those used by Germany, Russia, and Britain. Anyone give me a hand?

And you guys think you have it bad -- try living in the middle of a biker gang war like we did back almost 10 years ago. There was this "house" across the street from my apartment that was actually a biker fortress, complete with gun slits and video surveillance security. It was bombed by rival biker gangs, blew out all the windows in my apartment. Take THAT you silly street gangs!

Posted: **29 Nov 2006, 07:03**

I'd say stick with NATO standard, they're used by almost all wargamers today for all purposes and have pretty wide recognition among military enthusiasts.

The US symbology of WW2 shares some similarities with NATO standard but has some differences as well... the German one is just plain confusing... and I'm not familiar with the Russian one.

We may even want to go with a simpler shape set based on the standard symbols - Xs for infantry, unfilled Os for tanks, filled Os for artillery, triangles for AT guns, +s for AA guns, etc. Needn't make it any more complicated than that.

Posted: **29 Nov 2006, 08:08**

SpikedHelmet wrote:I've found accurate symbols for WW2 US symbols but I'm still looking for those used by Germany, Russia, and Britain. Anyone give me a hand?

Here are the German symbols (used 1943-1945). The page is in Russian though, so if you need a translation, I can do that too. I'll look for Russian symbols, I'm sure I have seen them somewhere, need to find them again.
Edit: here is the translation (Russian text, then English). It probably suffers from double translation (German->Russian->English), and I'm not sure I got all the English terms right.

Code: Select all

Общие обозначения
1 - Моторизованный транспорт
2 - Бронепехота
3 - Моторизованный
4 - Танковый или бронированный
5 - Противотанковый
6 - САУ
7 - Артиллерия танковой дивизии
8 - Самоходный
9 - Полугусеничный
10 - Смешаный моторизованный
11 - Моторизованный

General-purpose symbols
1 - Motorized transport
2 - Armored infantry (what's that?)
3 - Motorized
4 - Tank or armored vehicle
5 - Anti-tank
6 - Self-propelled gun
7 - Artillery of the tank division
8 - Self-propelled
9 - Half-tracked
10 - Mixed motorized
11 - Motorized
-----------------------
Вооружение
1 - ПТ винтовка*
2 - ПТ орудие**

* - Рядом с тактическим знаком ставилась аббревиатура калибра.
le - до 7,9 мм
s - от 8,0 мм и больше

** - Рядом с тактическим знаком ставилась аббревиатура калибра.
le - до 39 мм
m - от 40 до 59 мм
s - от 60 до 89 мм
sw - от 90 мм и больше

Weapons
1 - Anti-tank Rifle*
2 - Anti-tank Gun**

*-the calibre is abbreviated like this:
le - 7.9mm or less;
s - 8 mm or more
**-the calibre is abbreviated like this:
le - 39mm or less;
m - 40-59mm;
s - 60-89 mm;
sw - 90mm or more.
----------------------
Противотанковые подразделения
1 - Пехотный ПТ взвод
2 - Пехотная ПТ рота
3 - Горный ПТ взвод
4 - Горная ПТ рота
5 - Кавалерийский ПТ взвод
6 - Моторизованная ПТ рота
7 - Самоходная ПТ рота

Anti-tank regiments
1 - Infantry anti-tank platoon
2 - infantry anti-tank company
3 - Mountain anti-tank platoon
4 - mountain anti-tank company
5 - cavalry anti-tank platoon
6 - motorized anti-tank company
7 - self-propelled anti-tank company
----------------------
Танковые подразделения
1 - Танковый взвод
2 - Танковая рота
3 - Радиофицированная танковая рота
4 - Танковая (САУ) рота
5 - Штурмовая танковая рота (Sturmpanzer)
6 - Штабная танковая рота
7 - Танковый ремонтно-восстановительный взвод
8 - Танковая ремонтно-восстановительная рота
9 - Огнемётный танковый взвод
10 - Лёгкая моторизованная колонна танковых транспортёров*
11 - Танковый эвакуационный взвод


* - Колонна являлась отдельным транспортным подразделением, размером от взвода до роты. Обычно использовалось для перевозки оборудования, инструментов, танков и прочих машин, элементов понтонных мостов (только перевозка, в наводке мостов данное подразделение не участвовало) и пр.

Tank regiments
1 - tank platoon
2 - tank company
3 - tank company equipped with radio
4 - tank or SPG company
5 - assault tank company (Sturmpanzer)
6 - staff tank company
7 - tank field repair platoon
8 - tank field repair company
9 - flametrower tank platoon
10 - light motorized column of tank transporters*
11 - tank evacuation platoon (drags damaged tanks out of the battlefield for repair)

* - the column was a separate transport regiment sizing from platoon to a company size. Was used usually to transport the equipment, tools, spare parts, tanks and other vehicles, parts of pontoon bridges (only carrying, installing them was outside of that regiment's role), etc.
----------------------
Тяжёлые моторизованные роты
1 - Тяжёлая моторизованная рота
2 - Тяжёлая моторизованная рота (2)
3 - Тяжёлая разведывательная моторизованная рота

Heavy motorized companies
1 - Heavy motorized company
2 - Heavy motorized company (2)
3 - Heavy recon motorized company
----------------------
Прочие мобильные бронеподразделения
1 - Пехотный броневзвод
2 - Пехотная бронерота
3 - Огнемётный броневзвод
4 - Артиллерийский броневзвод
5 - Взвод бронемашин
6 - Рота бронемашин
7 - Рота полугусеничных бронемашин
8 - Рота гусеничных бронемашин
9 - Сапёрная бронерота
10 - Сапёрная бронерота "Голиафов" (Goliath) 
11 - Разведывательная бронерота

Other mobile armored regiments
1 - Infantry armored platoon
2 - Infantry armored company
3 - flamethrower armored platoon
4 - artillery armored platoon
5 - platoon of armored cars
6 - company of armored cars
7 - company of half-tracked armored cars
8 - company of tracked armored vehicles
9 - engineering armored company (sappers)
10 - Goliath armored sapper company (Goliath is a remote controlled self-propelled bomb)
11 - recon armored company
----------------------
Самоходные артиллерийские подразделения
1 - Батарея штурмовых САУ (Sd. Kfz. 142)
2 - Батарея тяжёлых 600 мм САУ (Karl Gerat)
3 - Рота пехотных САУ
4 - Штабной самоходный батальон

Self-propelled artillery regiments
1 - Battery of assault SPG (Sd. Kfz. 142)
2 - Battery of heavy 600mm SPG (Karl Gerat)
3 - company of infantry SPG
4 - self-propelled staff battalion
----------------------
Бронеподразделения связи
1 - Сигнальная бронерота
2 - Бронерота радиосвязи

Communications regiments
1 - Signal armored company
2 - Communications armored company

As for Russian symbols, I haven't found anything from the WW2 period, but there are some from the later Soviet era.

Posted: **29 Nov 2006, 12:47**

Uh... I don't see any symbols... I see reference of symbols but I don't see the symbols...

Posted: **29 Nov 2006, 13:18**

Oh, sorry. The symbols were at the page I linked to (there is a link in my post). I'll try to reproduce the page here.
General-purpose symbols

1 - Motorized transport
2 - Armored infantry (what's that?)
3 - Motorized
4 - Tank or armored vehicle
5 - Anti-tank
6 - Self-propelled gun
7 - Artillery of the tank division
8 - Self-propelled
9 - Half-tracked
10 - Mixed motorized
11 - Motorized

Weapons

1 - Anti-tank Rifle*
2 - Anti-tank Gun**

*-the calibre should be mentioned near the symbol and is abbreviated like this:
le - 7.9mm or less;
s - 8 mm or more
**-the calibre should be mentioned near the symbol and is abbreviated like this:
le - 39mm or less;
m - 40-59mm;
s - 60-89 mm;
sw - 90mm or more.

Anti-tank regiments

1 - Infantry anti-tank platoon
2 - infantry anti-tank company
3 - Mountain anti-tank platoon
4 - mountain anti-tank company
5 - cavalry anti-tank platoon
6 - motorized anti-tank company
7 - self-propelled anti-tank company

Tank regiments

1 - tank platoon
2 - tank company
3 - tank company equipped with radio
4 - tank or SPG company
5 - assault tank company (Sturmpanzer)
6 - staff tank company
7 - tank field repair platoon
8 - tank field repair company
9 - flametrower tank platoon
10 - light motorized column of tank transporters*
11 - tank evacuation platoon (drags damaged tanks out of the battlefield for repair)

* - the column was a separate transport regiment sizing from platoon to a company size. Was used usually to transport the equipment, tools, spare parts, tanks and other vehicles, parts of pontoon bridges (only carrying, installing them was outside of that regiment's role), etc.

Heavy motorized companies

1 - Heavy motorized company
2 - Heavy motorized company (2)
3 - Heavy recon motorized company

Other mobile armored regiments

1 - Infantry armored platoon
2 - Infantry armored company
3 - flamethrower armored platoon
4 - artillery armored platoon
5 - platoon of armored cars
6 - company of armored cars
7 - company of half-tracked armored cars
8 - company of tracked armored vehicles
9 - engineering armored company (sappers)
10 - Goliath armored sapper company (Goliath is a remote controlled self-propelled bomb)
11 - recon armored company

Self-propelled artillery regiments

1 - Battery of assault SPG (Sd. Kfz. 142)
2 - Battery of heavy 600mm SPG (Karl Gerat)
3 - company of infantry SPG
4 - self-propelled staff battalion

Communications regiments

1 - Signal armored company
2 - Communications armored company[/img]

Posted: **29 Nov 2006, 14:32**

For the purposes of spring, those might need some simplification...

Posted: **29 Nov 2006, 14:49**

yuritch wrote:Oh, sorry. The symbols were at the page I linked to (there is a link in my post). I'll try to reproduce the page here.
General-purpose symbols

1 - Motorized transport
2 - Armored infantry (what's that?)
.....

From the looks of it, I'd say mechanized infantry. A halftrack (well, the picture does display one) transport platoon/division/something loaded with troops, deploying them at the front lines.

Posted: **29 Nov 2006, 20:30**

Panzerinfanterie -- Motorized Infantry, usually attached to Panzer battalions.

These symbols make no sense. I can't tell if they're local-area symbols or broader theatre-area symbols, or both.

Posted: **29 Nov 2006, 20:38**

ATM, I don't think it's possible to designate cursors by side in a mod, only a single cursor set for the mod (Might have changed in this most recent version, haven't checked.).

So for now I would definitely go with the Nato-esque more universal symbols.

Posted: **29 Nov 2006, 23:09**

You designate icons on a per unit basis, so it would be possible to use nation-specific ones.

The bigger question is how confusing they might be for players. Infantry icons need to state clearly what type of infantry it is, a distinction that these symbols don't make.

Posted: **29 Nov 2006, 23:49**

Nemo wrote:You designate icons on a per unit basis, so it would be possible to use nation-specific ones.

The bigger question is how confusing they might be for players. Infantry icons need to state clearly what type of infantry it is, a distinction that these symbols don't make.

No, that will be entirely too confusing. One symbol for infantry, one for towed artillery, one for SP artillery, one for light vehicles, one for tanks, one for construction buildings, one for non-con buildings, one for flags, one for fighters, one for bombers, and that's still really too many symbols.

Posted: **30 Nov 2006, 00:12**

Yeah, I suppose. Still, infantry are the units that benefit most from icons, since they're hard to tell apart at distance, probably more so than any other unit. Its really nice to not have to select every unit in a group and/or zoom in super close to know what's there - one of the best features of the demo, imo. (although there isn't much competition for that spot >_> <_<)

Maybe overlay the unit type symbol over the generic infantry icon?

Posted: **30 Nov 2006, 01:19**

It's possible in some cases but not others. For instance, combining "Infantry" symbol with "Anti-Tank" gives you an anti-tank infantry symbol but it'll basically look like a web. There'd be no way to make "Recon Infantry", and there's no discernible symbol combo that could be used for snipers, machineguns, flamethrowers, etc. I'd go with simply using generic infantry symbol for all, if we can't do combos for all.

Posted: **30 Nov 2006, 01:22**

I think you can take a lot more liberty with different icon designs if you make the progression through them logical.

For example, this is what I originally proposed for Star Wars Spring (just a mockup):

We decided to go with something a bit more in-universe, but I think the logical progression is still very much there:

Posted: **30 Nov 2006, 01:22**

Is there a standard set of military map symbols for individual placements? All of these NATO symbols are basically for units from platoons to divisions and armies and are made for theatre maps, not local maps. The German ones there seem more local map, and there are like 3 symbosl that I saw from WW2 US that are for machinegun, anti-tank and something else. But I'm looking for a broader assortment. It would allow for unit-specific symbols.

Posted: **30 Nov 2006, 01:24**

Well, I was thinking of a much more stylized symbol for the overlaid ones - think in terms of BF1942 class icons - crosshair for sniper, a tank with a circle around it and a line through it for AT, ect, ect.

Spring RTS Engine

Spring: 1944 v0.01 Alpha