Spring RTS Engine

Well, I can always update Low Fat FF <_< >_>


Optimus, the way FF is right now (or at least was, as of 1.16), you're forcing people to tech, rather than rush, since rushing is impossible.

You accuse min3 of trying to force everyone to play a rushing game. Well, you're forcing "everyone" (in quotes, since the playerbase of FF is perhaps 15 people), to play a porcing/teching game, since early units are so completely worthless.

15 players?
isly and his brother kovin are actually decent at FF (<3 you guys if you're listening)
Opty...well...he plays his mod the way he thinks it should be played. i'll say that much O.O
Pussycat's play is very much questionable tbh
Day's given up
Krog uses it for his AI
There are several noobs as well but the only people who i really respect at this game are Isly and Kovin, they scout, expand, attack, mix units, don't always tech, sometimes ODS rush (now the STARTING UNIT counters ODS rushes, even with the damage reduction he is still going to pwn them i think) meaning that you cannot laugh at noobs without EMP weapons...they laugh at you O,O
Let alone the porching and the LONE multiplayer map (FF-Surrounded) and LONE singleplayer map (FF-Asteriod Battle). Yes there are other maps, all but Picasso's are ugly imbalanced or just stupid. Whereas Picasso's is at least a good idea but never really intended to be played on seriously (i hope)

you make it sound like so much fun...

Yeah. Great fun.

Last i checked, the mod had been downloaded 1700 times. Even if just a small percentage of those who downloaded it played it then thats still significantly more than 15. You also have to realise that there are people such as myself who just don't play online. (My only internet access is after work at work). Its a bit rich to think that you speak for the entire FF player base if you only know 5 people who play it :).

whoopty do. 1,700 downloads....

Gundam annihilation has:
2242 for spring
405 for OTA

That is JUST on fileuniverse. There are many other sites that host the OTA version. So gundam has been downloaded tons, it is seldom played if at all.

Starwars spring: 182
It is a good mod... games online = 0

OTA + EVO + better BP: 4817
games online = 0



I have said it before and for once I agrea with minemat, I do not like FF as it is now.

I like it, but I just wish it was faster and more explody. I mean right now its pretty mcuh an hour+ for an even remotly good FF game. And by good, i mean something...well...happens...

I love the ship desines and the ship guns and the ship lasers and the explosions. I just don't like the play speed. I'm sorry, Prime, but it needs some work.

Hey, thats a cool nick name...Prime. Reminds me of something...

the point why this mod isnt played so much is like i said 10000 times that no one wants to test it. AA is forcing players to stay at this mod because even if you dl a mod, you dont find anyone who plays with you..
Even myself is forced to play AA because there arent enough players who join - but that doesnt mean that there arent players who dont wanna play it. They all think that there will only a few ppl join and they dont want to wait 5 mins or more. And because everyone thinks so, no one tries to host or join. I know from some ppl that they think the same and this will happen to every new mod.


To the speed of this mod: The mod is only slow at start, so why not set the start metal at 5k or so? Thats a nice TA feature and should work for you who like it fast. I bet you never tested it with more than 1k metal - perhaps this is exactly the change you are asking for (two klicks btw if you have a good eye ).

Edit: hm my demofiles are corrupted since the new spring version: i wanted to show you some demos where i rushed even you min3mat. Ok it wasnt a peeweerush, where you can kill a whole base with one unit, but it was a constant fight right from the start to the end.

Getting a game is not a problem for me, i can just "forcibly persuade" some people to join but the problem is that it doesnt seem fun, and when someone comes here to voice their opinion you just throw them off in a fit of arrogance (yes ive played your mod, several times and no i dont think i want to play it again).
The other opposite is caydr listening to noobs too much but from a quick look at the lobby its easy to see which approach works better.
Stop behaving like a victim of AA and learn to treat your playerbase well, listening to all sides fairly instead of just your own.

You know, the last few pages of this thread have rather turned me off the mod... but I still plan on playing it, possibly to prove people wrong about the AA crowding-out theory.

yeah opty blame it on AA. its AA's fault you have megafusions. Its AA stealing your playerbase.
what freaking ever. this mod used to be played but after a while people realised how utterly crap it was and stopped. You have completely ignored my requests. It may be 'rich' i speak for the community. But its also not very funny because even i don't play this imbalanced crap regularly anymore. And woot in the future we will have a 3rd race to add to the imbalance. i can wait
My requests will make endgame a lot more interesting, territory more important

i think its very unfriendly to force other ppl to play the way you do. I and i think most ppl like to tech at lvl 3 and build some big stuff instead of rushing right from begin. Its like when i say that i only wanna play with peewees and small units so caydr shall remove all other stuff. To arguement with balancing is nonsens here...

Edit: this is a strategy game. You decide at begin what strategy you are playing and if you wanna tech and your enemy dont do so and attacks you, you will die. If not, you have an advantage in the later game.. thats the way rts`s go (look at SC, WC, C&C, DOW,...).
You are a rusher and because you lose against players who tech and can survive your attacks i shall remove the abili

ty to tech? Sorry, no.

HA
HA
FUCKING HA
thought you'd sneak this in behind my back?
so, by not teching in FF you gain a advantage. LOL. LOL. LOLOLOLOL.
If you don't tech you are dead. There is NO other strategy. Unit mixing is vaguely important in FF. Expansion is also vaguely important.

I suggest going t2 gives you a advantage, better economy
going t3 gets you a advantage, the T3 ships that are very useful, and the con ship with a lot of buildpower, which can assist build or get defenses.

The T3 mexes were a freaking stupid idea. The Megafusion was worse. Let alone the geo...at TIER 3???? so you don't actually need to fight over the geo spots ffs... /,/

At the moment if you don't go to T2 you are dead. Morningstar > You since ODS are so easy to counter. Thats bearable becasue fighters can outrun morningstars and you can use some strategy and you always have the T1 Antiship defenses.

However being FORCED to go to tech 3 for the FAR superior economy AND the awesome ships is extremely stupid.
The fight should remain at T1 for a short while (maybe longer than now, but its not like you'd do something COMPLETELY unreasonable and add 10% to the T2 Plants cost and BT. That would make T1 useful and the battles at T1 EXCITING)
After you should choose to continue T1 for a while and maybe take our his T2 Plant if possible. It SHOULD be viable to continue using T1 for a while, and the increased BT especially on the T2 plant should REALLY help make gameplay DYNAMIC.
Once you are at T2 there should be a series of major battles for territory or areas of strategic interest, T2 repair drones can be used to boost building and to reclaim.
After a long stretch at this point, maybe 20+ mins into T2 the T3 should start, the smaller ships to not dent your production and help you counter T2 ships in the field, Lastly maybe 10-15 mins before the end of the game the T3 Big ships should come out, properly supported by a array of smaller ships and used to finish it.

THAT is my vision. I don't expect you to do it but that won't stop me TRYING to make FF PLAYABLE again.

krogothe wrote:Getting a game is not a problem for me, i can just "forcibly persuade" some people to join but the problem is that it doesnt seem fun, and when someone comes here to voice their opinion you just throw them off in a fit of arrogance (yes ive played your mod, several times and no i dont think i want to play it again).
The other opposite is caydr listening to noobs too much but from a quick look at the lobby its easy to see which approach works better.
Stop behaving like a victim of AA and learn to treat your playerbase well, listening to all sides fairly instead of just your own.

if you would reread your post "19, 2006 8:59 pm" than you would know what is arrogance. You said that lvl 3 is useless in any game but thats totaly wrong. Just to tell you some examples: SC, DOW, WC3... in a normal game you see even the best players to get at techlvl 3 before winning.

And i listen to a lot of things people tell me. But one thing i dont wanna do is to make FF play like all the other mods just with differnt units.
In half a year there will be Supcom which will be huge in any way. All i could see about it tells me that you will need even a lot more time for a game than you need for a long ff game and i dont think that this will be bad for the RTS genre in general.
For me a good game is mostly a long game and my experiece tells me the same, because in 90% of the games longer than 90 mins all people had a lot more fun than in these 30mins games and we discussed the game sometimes even more than 15 mins in the lobby.
I think that the problem is that here are 2 types of players: the ones that want a tournament mod where a battle is short so that you can beat a lot ppl in a short time and the other players who like to have a lot of fun while they play. Its nearly impossible to make both sides happy with one mod.

The danger in making the game faster is the following: if i would make things more cheaper, you would get the big ships a lot faster and than they wouldnt be as spectacular as they are now. The same effect you get when you start a speedmetal map. Its just in the nature of a player to spam the biggest things you get for your money.
I mean who would say OMG a broadside, if you can have it after 10 mins of playing.
Reducing the HP or increasing the firepower is not possible (at least not more than 5-10%) because this mod shall feel like a spacemod where a battleship is hard to kill and not like only another unit.

Actually all i hear from you is flaming at all, but not one good suggestion how i can do it faster but also feel like it should be.

yeah a good game is a long one. i suggest increasing the HP of all units 3 fold so that we can all have stale gameplay.
A VARIED GAME is a good one. one where you have to SCOUT to keep up as your opponent could do MORE THAN ONE STRATEGY. Where its possible to be defeated easily if you are a complete and utter noob. Where there is a level of gameplay that is FUN.
How much has your mod been played recently?
at the least could you implement the changes i've played into a FF M3 edition so i can at least play the damn mod again.

DOW... hmmm i dont think any good games end with the highest tech there

Min3mat wrote:yeah a good game is a long one. i suggest increasing the HP of all units 3 fold so that we can all have stale gameplay.
A VARIED GAME is a good one. one where you have to SCOUT to keep up as your opponent could do MORE THAN ONE STRATEGY. Where its possible to be defeated easily if you are a complete and utter noob. Where there is a level of gameplay that is FUN.
How much has your mod been played recently?
at the least could you implement the changes i've played into a FF M3 edition so i can at least play the damn mod again.

Why the heck do you even spend your time here bitching around like on PMS if you hate FF so much?

Just go and have a happy circlejerk with nemo and his no fat all boner variation, and be happy.

Optimus Prime wrote:Actually all i hear from you is flaming at all, but not one good suggestion how i can do it faster but also feel like it should be.

this is sarcasm? or are you BLIND

Min3mat wrote:nice changelog!
don't mess with shields
remove the superdupermegafusion the crappyuselessODS'teleporter' and the geos (no sense at all...) and the titan

Min3mat wrote:erk...
the megafusion is ugly big and annoying. its much more balanced to have to gain land to profit (the minifusion is a way to help but at a higher cost, as it should be)

the titan is useless. it is ugly. it is pointless.
its like...a krogoth in OTA. but ugly.

FF should have a much more varied gameplay now, with T2 fighters being slightly more useful and bigger ships actually costing you (AS THEY SHOULD!)

I rush. I expand. Sorry ^^. Flanking a opponent who builds a base on 1/2 asteriods is pretty hard so i generally don't try ^^.

Make minifusions 4-5% more expensive, Remove the goddamn super units. Get rid of the damn 'mega' fusion. If you are going to add superunits THINK AGAIN you have 4 classes of ships ffs!

I haven't played this mod in ages; firstly coz there are balance issues (which you REFUSE to adress. I think 'i have exams now' is a PERFECTLY valid excuse so i haven't pestered you in a while. However 'AA has it ;_;' 'i like the titan ;_;' are NOT. >.>

Min3mat wrote: teh level 3 are fine as gameenders, maybe you get 1/2 in a battle right at the very end. The T3 mexes however... T2 should be slightly more expensive and slightly better and the T3 removed. So you don't HAVE to go T3, you go T3 only if you NEED to or WANT to. not for the goddamn economy :\

Min3mat wrote:i'm more or less the only person who thinks FF has a future, so please listen.

(not that you are though)

Min3mat wrote:There are several noobs as well but the only people who i really respect at this game are Isly and Kovin, they scout, expand, attack, mix units, don't always tech, sometimes ODS rush (now the STARTING UNIT counters ODS rushes, even with the damage reduction he is still going to pwn them i think) meaning that you cannot laugh at noobs without EMP weapons...they laugh at you O,O
Let alone the porching and the LONE multiplayer map (FF-Surrounded) and LONE singleplayer map (FF-Asteriod Battle). Yes there are other maps, all but Picasso's are ugly imbalanced or just stupid. Whereas Picasso's is at least a good idea but never really intended to be played on seriously (i hope)

(nerf com vs ODS. get more maps)

Zoombie wrote:I like it, but I just wish it was faster and more explody.

Zoombie wrote:And by good, i mean something...well...happens...

Zoombie wrote:I just don't like the play speed

Krogoth wrote:and when someone comes here to voice their opinion you just throw them off in a fit of arrogance

Krogoth wrote:Stop behaving like a victim of AA and learn to treat your playerbase well, listening to all sides fairly instead of just your own.

Min3mat wrote:what freaking ever. this mod used to be played but after a while people realised how utterly crap it was and stopped. You have completely ignored my requests. It may be 'rich' i speak for the community. But its also not very funny because even i don't play this imbalanced crap regularly anymore. And woot in the future we will have a 3rd race to add to the imbalance. i can wait Rolling Eyes

My requests will make endgame a lot more interesting, territory more important

ty to tech? Sorry, no.

HA
HA
FUCKING HA
thought you'd sneak this in behind my back?
so, by not teching in FF you gain a advantage. LOL. LOL. LOLOLOLOL.
If you don't tech you are dead. There is NO other strategy. Unit mixing is vaguely important in FF. Expansion is also vaguely important.

I suggest going t2 gives you a advantage, better economy
going t3 gets you a advantage, the T3 ships that are very useful, and the con ship with a lot of buildpower, which can assist build or get defenses.

The T3 mexes were a freaking stupid idea. The Megafusion was worse. Let alone the geo...at TIER 3???? so you don't actually need to fight over the geo spots ffs... /,/

At the moment if you don't go to T2 you are dead. Morningstar > You since ODS are so easy to counter. Thats bearable becasue fighters can outrun morningstars and you can use some strategy and you always have the T1 Antiship defenses.

However being FORCED to go to tech 3 for the FAR superior economy AND the awesome ships is extremely stupid.
The fight should remain at T1 for a short while (maybe longer than now, but its not like you'd do something COMPLETELY unreasonable and add 10% to the T2 Plants cost and BT. That would make T1 useful and the battles at T1 EXCITING)
After you should choose to continue T1 for a while and maybe take our his T2 Plant if possible. It SHOULD be viable to continue using T1 for a while, and the increased BT especially on the T2 plant should REALLY help make gameplay DYNAMIC.
Once you are at T2 there should be a series of major battles for territory or areas of strategic interest, T2 repair drones can be used to boost building and to reclaim.
After a long stretch at this point, maybe 20+ mins into T2 the T3 should start, the smaller ships to not dent your production and help you counter T2 ships in the field, Lastly maybe 10-15 mins before the end of the game the T3 Big ships should come out, properly supported by a array of smaller ships and used to finish it.

THAT is my vision. I don't expect you to do it but that won't stop me TRYING to make FF PLAYABLE again.

A VARIED GAME is a good one. one where you have to SCOUT to keep up as your opponent could do MORE THAN ONE STRATEGY. Where its possible to be defeated easily if you are a complete and utter noob. Where there is a level of gameplay that is FUN.
How much has your mod been played recently?
at the least could you implement the changes i've played into a FF M3 edition so i can at least play the damn mod again.

no fat FF is imbalanced crap.
Then again so is FF.
Opty completely ignores suggestions, often without hinting why. Then he says 'you make no suggestions'
and you trust him...

Optimus Prime wrote:the point why this mod isnt played so much is like i said 10000 times that no one wants to test it. AA is forcing players to stay at this mod because even if you dl a mod, you dont find anyone who plays with you..

I don't play FF for pretty much the same reasons min3mat's been stating. The absurd costs and buildtimes make things unplayable for the most part. I want to have fun when I play, but I also want battles that have a reasonable chance of being finished in under an hour.

Oh, and your comments about PeeWees in AA show one thing and one thing only: you don't understand AA.

So, here's an alternate game design for you. Instead of "higher TL = bigger ships", how about "higher TL = more advanced ships". In this model, fighters, small warships, and big warships become like air/kbots/vehicles in OTA-based mods - useful in different circumstances, making it necessary to field a mixed force against equally skilled opponents.

You could also look at the way many of the Homeworld 2 TCs handle things. They manage to balance really frigging big ships with sensible buildtimes and cost. And while I haven't followed them carefully, I wouldn't be surprised if they still allowed for the various "10 minute battlecruiser" or "15 minute battlecruiser" strategies. Yet despite getting these massive ships at 10 minutes, they're still impressive and powerful.

meh some how I feel vindicated.. but oh well..

1. these suggestions you made, arent very usefull or exact. "Removing tech 3" - this cant be a real suggestion.
Removing the "ugly" units only because you dont like them isnt a real suggestion too because it wouldnt help the gamespeed at all and this is the problem you all speak about.
Making poketfusions more expensive would make the game even slower not faster.

2. my AA arguments were just examples for a counterargument why removing tech 3 - not more

3. more maps and so on: i for sure dont have the time for making maps and the mod. Especially when you dont like the noskybox-version

4. even if you dont think that there arent enough strategies, there are more than you think. Its just logical that the higher the tech level, the mroe units you can build and the more strategies are available.

5. i think you dont wanna play FF because me and xcrist have beaten you in the last 2 games.

6. why did you think i decreased the commdamage against ODS? Because this was a serious good suggestion from you. So dont say that i never listen to ppl or i have to call you a lier.

7. no one is hearing what i said:

To the speed of this mod: The mod is only slow at start, so why not set the start metal at 5k or so? Thats a nice TA feature and should work for you who like it fast. I bet you never tested it with more than 1k metal - perhaps this is exactly the change you are asking for (two klicks btw if you have a good eye ).

8. in Homeworld, there was a a specific unitlimit, so you could have only a few battleships, this limit is not possible in spring, so you would have a homeworld with hundreds of battleships.

9. i respect your effort helping this mod, but you cant compare units with aa units what most ppl do. A battleship is not a bulldog, a titan not a krogoth and a fighter not a peewee.

10. what will you do if supcom has beed released? Suicide? Or spam Chris Taylor with mailbombs until he will make the maps 1/10 the size, the units cheaper and weaker. I dont think so because it is a NEW game which will be played in a different way.
FF is played rare at the moment, but thats not of the "imbalanceness" or the gamespeed but more the point that so few ppl even tried it. You are argumenting with imbalanceness, but i dont see a single imbalanced unit. I can win with nearly every strategy or unit and i try to play different in most games (only i dont like rushing but that doesnt mean that its not possible at all - i tried it successfully).

I suggest you to play FF with an increased aount of metal at start and if you still think that its too slow after some weeks of playing, we can discuss some changes more in detail, but atm i think that the speed is just to slow at the start (for me even the start is fast enough) and this can be fixed easily by increasing the startmetal. Another factor is the map: you play deepspace, but on this map, the metal is very rare in comparison to surrounded.

edit: i forgot to say that you dont need to reach tech 3 for the eco: in tech 2 you have the best energy source (poketfusions) and the mohometalmaker which are still used in tech 3.