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Posted: 19 Sep 2006, 04:44
by Neddie
Omnipotence presupposes omniscience. Omniscience presupposes objectivity. True objectivity reduces the meaning of existance to a null value - the truly objective has no motives, desires, or thoughts on a subject - the truly objective can only watch, and never change.
Thus logically the existance of an omnipotent and objective deity as considered by some religions is simply impossible - as that deity would be unable to affect reality.
Yes, I was once considering Theology for my double major. Now, following that little side step...
There can be no proof of evolution just as there can be no proof of essentially anything else. How do you prove that something is or is not? Listen to the accounts of others and you could be lied to. Use your own senses and you could be duped. Conduct research, and the rules on which you conduct your research could be false.
Truth, proof and classification are all attempts spawned out of limited human civilization to quantify that which exists beyond our own understanding, or, to be blunt, everything. Which of course may be nothing.
Yes, I was once considering Philosophy for my double major. Now, following...
Posted: 19 Sep 2006, 06:05
by FoeOfTheBee
neddiedrow wrote: Omniscience presupposes objectivity.
A non sequitur, I think.
Posted: 19 Sep 2006, 06:36
by Das Bruce
Forboding Angel wrote:There is no real substance of proof of evolution. If you all will remember on his deathbed darwin himself said it was not possible.
Firstly that is un proven and makes utterly no difference in the scientific arena.
Posted: 19 Sep 2006, 06:42
by CompWiz
Were YOU there?
if not then you cant prove anything in this thread
Posted: 19 Sep 2006, 08:11
by Neddie
Foe OfTheBee wrote:neddiedrow wrote: Omniscience presupposes objectivity.
A non sequitur, I think.
O, contraire! If one sees all and knows all one must be beyond all - thus requiring objectivity.
Posted: 19 Sep 2006, 08:20
by SwiftSpear
I read a huge article about natural selection being disproved somewhere... can't remember. That isn't to say that evolution has been disproved, just that natural selection seems implausible. There are alot of things about any type of evolution that we really don't understand still, it's a theory that still needs alot of intellectual polish. At this point it's been proved that lifeforms change from generation to generation, to my recollection humanity is the last known speciation in recorded biological history (speciation being the switch from one species to another by a group of lifeforms) which is a little interesting to say the least. It's a strange conundrum to science still, if not natural selection, what exactly does cause speciation?
Posted: 19 Sep 2006, 08:30
by Das Bruce
SwiftSpear wrote:I read a huge article about natural selection being disproved somewhere... can't remember.
PLEASE find it?
SwiftSpear wrote: It's a strange conundrum to science still, if not natural selection, what exactly does cause speciation?
Speciation is mostly caused by seperation, usually physical, maybe a lake, or a mountain or even just large distances.
Posted: 19 Sep 2006, 08:31
by unpossible
SwiftSpear wrote:humanity is the last known speciation in recorded biological history
that's highly improbable, given the rate at which we breed compared to smaller creatures. zum beispiel, bacteria can progress in the blink of an eye compared to us - imaginge them developing immunities to drugs. it's simply because they breed so damn quickly. species are just a little step more than differentiation but definately related to the rate things reproduce.
and there's nothing wrong with evolution, it's just people's interpretation of 'survival of the fittest' as 'survival of the
strongest'. really it's survival of the best suited creature with reference to it's environment, taking into account other species. different rates of reproduction eventually bias the populations of different things native to that environment, in favour of the 'fittest'. the others are outcompeted, but that's not to say they were 'bad' in the first place.
the neaderthals died out due to their stocky build not being suited for the new grasslands that opened up just as humans swept into europe. with their stocky build they relied on snekaing up on prey in woodland, but without it they just weren't able to survive - 'outcompeted' by humans but really just victims of circumstance.
Posted: 19 Sep 2006, 08:57
by Neddie
Humanity is not the last known speciation. It's the last commonly known one.
Posted: 19 Sep 2006, 09:46
by KDR_11k
Testing results, fossils, etc are evidence, not proof. (Positive) Proof does not apply to physics.
Neddiedrow: You can prove something is not. At least if it's a law that claims to apply to everything, then you just find something it doesn't apply to. Same for proving existence, just find one example where it exists. What cannot be proven is if something applies to everything or if something doesn't exist (for an infinite set of possible values for x you cannot prove Axφ or ├é┬¼Exφ where φ is an expression using only test samples (you need empirical proof for that) but you can prove ├é┬¼Axφ and Exφ with samples).
Posted: 19 Sep 2006, 10:21
by Das Bruce
KDR_11k wrote:Testing results, fossils, etc are evidence, not proof. (Positive) Proof does not apply to physics.
Nihilism isn't very encouraging of experiment or debate.
Posted: 19 Sep 2006, 11:21
by Lolsquad_Steven
Did we evolve from animals? Is there a god? Did the big bang occur? does gravity exist? Personaly i feel what ever floats the boat.
I'm in the back chillen like a villan.
Posted: 19 Sep 2006, 11:37
by Ishach
Lolsquad_Steven wrote:
chillen like a villan.
Posted: 19 Sep 2006, 12:10
by Lolsquad_Steven
Ishach wrote:Lolsquad_Steven wrote:
chillen like a villan.
Posted: 19 Sep 2006, 12:18
by Das Bruce
Lolsquad_Steven wrote:Can I speel?
NEIN!
Posted: 19 Sep 2006, 13:05
by Orakio
Do you think that Darwin discovered evolution too after a Jafaa cake fell out of his hand? Kind of like Isaac newton discovering gravity by an apple falling on his head. To deny evolution is insane. if you have some thing that can reproduce and pass down it's traits will evolve in one way or another. There are lots of things that people don't pay attention to when it comes to evolution. One in particular is that all a species diverge means is to change reproductive compatibility. You could have 100 species, which after a billion years could still be 100 species, without any diverging but they could all have significant changes. Consider the differences within the human species, you get people that are black, white, etc regionally just because of the climate but still sexually reproductive. If it suddenly got very sunny everywhere perhaps everyone would eventually adapt to produce more brown pigment and turn black, but remain sexually compatible. Also, because things like viruses have much shorter generations we compensate by using out brains more actively to selectively breed outselves, sexual selection. So things evolve to evolve, gender alone is proof of this. There is absolutely no doubt that evolution exists and happens. Long before GM food we were genetically modifying plants and animals with selective breeding. While I don't believe in god, this doesn't means that it isn't possible for a God to have created several billion years of history in a day.
Denying evolution is like farting and then lying about it, blaming it on your friend or something, since everyone here evolved. "No it wasn't me I didn't evolve I swear!"
Posted: 19 Sep 2006, 14:07
by BigSteve
Finally someone with a bit of common sense, I think people got a bit wrapped up in all that stuff they were copying and pasting from journals ^^
Posted: 19 Sep 2006, 14:29
by KDR_11k
If Darwin had thought of evolution with a jaffa cake in his hand natural selection would be "survival of the dumbest". Though I think he'd have formulated thathtesis upon seeing modern TV programming, too.
Posted: 19 Sep 2006, 14:57
by Lolsquad_Steven
Orakio wrote:Do you think that Darwin discovered evolution too after a Jafaa cake fell out of his hand? Kind of like Isaac newton discovering gravity by an apple falling on his head. To deny evolution is insane. if you have some thing that can reproduce and pass down it's traits will evolve in one way or another. There are lots of things that people don't pay attention to when it comes to evolution. One in particular is that all a species diverge means is to change reproductive compatibility. You could have 100 species, which after a billion years could still be 100 species, without any diverging but they could all have significant changes. Consider the differences within the human species, you get people that are black, white, etc regionally just because of the climate but still sexually reproductive. If it suddenly got very sunny everywhere perhaps everyone would eventually adapt to produce more brown pigment and turn black, but remain sexually compatible. Also, because things like viruses have much shorter generations we compensate by using out brains more actively to selectively breed outselves, sexual selection. So things evolve to evolve, gender alone is proof of this. There is absolutely no doubt that evolution exists and happens. Long before GM food we were genetically modifying plants and animals with selective breeding. While I don't believe in god, this doesn't means that it isn't possible for a God to have created several billion years of history in a day.
Denying evolution is like farting and then lying about it, blaming it on your friend or something, since everyone here evolved. "No it wasn't me I didn't evolve I swear!"
If god could make billions of years of history then surely he could have made the individual changes for all of us to survive. We don't know, all we do know is that in reality everyone hates you and people only be nice to you because they think you're an idiot.
Posted: 19 Sep 2006, 15:40
by Zoombie
I just would like to reiterate a point I've said:
"Just cause it never happened dosn't mean its not true"