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Re: limit player number to 8-10 per game.
Posted: 19 Jan 2009, 16:35
by HeadHunter
OK, let's compare spring with game which DO have measures for keeping player level *high*, and are somewhat similar to spring.
It is THQ's company of heroes (COH).
- THQ limits play to 4v4. So, if in 4 player team we see a newbie, the team loses. 100%.
Spring does not really have any reasonable limit (100x100 game is impossible for technical reasons).
Outcome - if you want real macrostrategy - COH sucks. It is a micromanagement game. And, of course, it is much harder to balance 4v4 game than 6v6.
- So THQ devs added some kind of ranking system, which keeps record of how good you play for Allies, how you play as Axis, and it will never allow to play L7 against L2, even if you are L20 for other side. For each major victory you get level, and you can loose level if you lose.
Spring measures experience, not victories, thus it just allows others to see how much one played, not how good. That is somewhat worse, since you can play for hours and stay moran, but it actually allows to destinguish between those who doesn't know how to play and those who are just not as gooda as others.
Outcome - Spring gives you more freedom, while it cannot measure actual "power" of player. So spring games are in theory much more unpredictable. The only compensation is a big battle with lots of players for each side.
- In COH noobs play with noobs, and pros play with pros. So noobs cant learn from pros even if they want to. Also COH lacks replays, on replay you see only YOUR part of game, not your opponent's.
I really dislike ranking system, and play custom battles. In custom battle you do not get any ranks/levels, but you get FUN. Cause it really rocks only when you have really different level players on both sides. Of course there is no auto balance like in spring lobbies, but does it matter?
Outcome - autobalance + different players + lots of players = more balanced game =>more fun.
To conclude - as soon as you start limiting player's freedom they either leave or look for other ways of play. The major advantage of spring before ANY other RTS is the freedom. The freedom in platform/OS choosing, the freedom of strategy, freedom in hosting the battle you like, not battle devs like. That's why there should be NO hardcoded limits. It just breaks main spring concept. At least for OTA - like mods.
Re: limit player number to 8-10 per game.
Posted: 19 Jan 2009, 16:49
by Neddie
This suggestion is unnecessary and will not solve the problem it was proposed to address. We are losing skilled players primarily because they have no competition. In addition, the wide range of arguably complex games on the engine results in a divided high-level player base and frustrates the advancement of new players to skilled status.
Regret, Peet, Spawn, Gota, Hoi; Respect your peers. If you cannot debate with civility, do not attempt to debate the topic at all.
Re: limit player number to 8-10 per game.
Posted: 19 Jan 2009, 18:39
by Hoi
Regret, Peet, Spawn, Hoi; Respect your peers. If you cannot debate with civility, do not attempt to debate the topic at all.
I think everyone flaming gota is right, all of the people named above are pretty civil, problem is that gota is just a troll who has suggested this before and doesn't know the meaning of the word no., there's no depate possible with gota, he's just someone who thinks he's right 100% of the time.
Re: limit player number to 8-10 per game.
Posted: 19 Jan 2009, 18:40
by Spawn_Retard
neddiedrow wrote:This suggestion is unnecessary and will not solve the problem it was proposed to address. We are losing skilled players primarily because they have no competition. In addition, the wide range of arguably complex games on the engine results in a divided high-level player base and frustrates the advancement of new players to skilled status.
Regret, Peet, Spawn, Gota, Hoi; Respect your peers. If you cannot debate with civility, do not attempt to debate the topic at all.
I gave full respect, i gave my opinion which was different and closer to the truth than that of GOTA
Re: limit player number to 8 per game.
Posted: 19 Jan 2009, 19:12
by Acidd_UK
Gota wrote:[We should artifically limit people's options.]
We should also force ppl to play at 640x480 to improve their framerates and run the game speed at 0.1 to ensure ppl with slow cpus have less negative effect on the game.
Re: limit player number to 8-10 per game.
Posted: 19 Jan 2009, 19:20
by Wisse
Look Gota, fuck this. It's not gonna work. Let players decide what they want. Only solution is to increase player base. Percentage of descent players is below critical atm and it's not gonna change soon. The only way is to get more ppl = more competitive players or to wipe DSD out of existence. You're not gonna get more ppl in by decreasing or increasing players per game limit.
1v1s are personal thing. You won't pull anyone in. Players will decide whether they want to play or not.
Clan games are different thing tho. Ppl tend to get sucked into team spirit which gives them will to improve. But there's just no clan scene going on. Not enough ppl. No reward. Maybe top 5 clans (or more later on) should get special tags which would give clan some reputation as an award for playing good. That calls for separate name / tag implementation again. But than again it's spring, 10000 mods = 50000 special tags = not so exclusive anymore = same fail in interest as ladder has.
Bottom line is that spring just can't get competitive, unless at least 3 mods die at the same time. There were probably less mods per player in old times than there are now (even i can recall that from the time of AA) which meant bigger player base per mod and that gave you competitive community.
In old times ppl came to Spring couse they liked OTA, now ppl come to work on this nice engine, or to kill spare time without stressing out. I think future's gonna get more fun for casual players (noobs) while pro community will die completely. It's not fun trying anymore since there aren't any rAndys left to chase.
Now delete SA and come play me on BA.
Re: limit player number to 8-10 per game.
Posted: 19 Jan 2009, 19:27
by Otherside
cap SA to 8 players if it bothers u so much
there are other things you can blame for poor playerskill but the playercap isnt.
Id say its more that people are to stuck on one style of play and one map and dont get out of that. Also metal makers in big team games (sure you could have a point about big games here) make people think its ok to porc in regular scenarios and dont make them expand but then again thats a mod problem and not springs
And also com bombing (but thats the mods problem)
In general its all a mod problem
Re: limit player number to 8-10 per game.
Posted: 19 Jan 2009, 20:33
by KDR_11k
For an example of a LARGE game try WiC, 12v12 is common. It goes up to 16v16. CoH was designed to be small scale, WiC was designed to be large scale.
BTW, there's a fog of war toggle in CoH, disable that and you can see both teams' actions.
Re: limit player number to 8-10 per game.
Posted: 19 Jan 2009, 22:40
by HeadHunter
thnx, never noticed that FOW switch.
By the way, in COH skilled players get special icons when achieving good result in some kind of game, e.g. if you are good in 2v2, you get special mark on your icon.
IMHO, clan system is good, but not enough. Ideas like CA's planetary war are much more general-purpose and require much less people to maintain.
And also right now participating in clan gives you nothing. A cool icons could be a good start
Re: limit player number to 8-10 per game.
Posted: 20 Jan 2009, 00:10
by TradeMark
Heh, again people try to change people, instead of changing the mods...
Re: limit player number to 8-10 per game.
Posted: 20 Jan 2009, 01:38
by Gota
Head hunter you have named some of the reasons why this works worse in COH by yourself.
Neddie,a steep learning curve was always the problem it's not new.
Otherside,metal makers have nothing to do with it as they were always there and were even more dominant in OTA since people didn't even use t2 mexes.
Combombing is not a reason for low player skills.
KDR,WiC was designed for large games unlike OTA mods.
It is also very different from OTA based mods.
Trademark,to make an OTA mod play well in 8v8+ games youd have to make massive changes.
The cap is not artificial.
The cap represents the limitations of a mod in "in team communication".
It is effectively part of a mod's balance.
Some restrictions are beneficial and I'm not talking just about gaming.
The fact its a RESTRICTION doesn't mean it has to be immediately opposed.
Re: limit player number to 8-10 per game.
Posted: 20 Jan 2009, 01:45
by thesleepless
a much better solution to ease team communication would be an inbuilt team voice chat
Re: limit player number to 8-10 per game.
Posted: 20 Jan 2009, 02:30
by Regret
neddiedrow wrote:Regret, Peet, Spawn, Gota, Hoi; Respect your peers. If you cannot debate with civility, do not attempt to debate the topic at all.
Just lock this thread.
a) what Gota proposed is not going to happen for obvious reasons
b) there is no sense in debating it
Re: limit player number to 8-10 per game.
Posted: 20 Jan 2009, 02:33
by Wisse
thesleepless wrote:a much better solution to ease team communication would be an inbuilt team voice chat
Use Licho's TS system for that. It works quite well. But ppl don't have mics or they don't have enough confidence in their english.
Re: limit player number to 8-10 per game.
Posted: 20 Jan 2009, 02:51
by Gota
Regret wrote:neddiedrow wrote:Regret, Peet, Spawn, Gota, Hoi; Respect your peers. If you cannot debate with civility, do not attempt to debate the topic at all.
Just lock this thread.
a) what Gota proposed is not going to happen for obvious reasons
b) there is no sense in debating it
You love to comnap commanders of newbie players and you love to combomb.-is this not true Regret?Am I completely off?It's something you have yourself been boasting about.
Where does this work best?
In huge chaotic games with many newbies.
You passing judgment on this matter is like a forum troll making forum laws.
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The reason why ts is not a good solution has already been discussed.
Re: limit player number to 8 per game.
Posted: 20 Jan 2009, 06:45
by zwzsg
thesleepless wrote:the host can already limit number of players in the lobby,
imbaczek wrote:amazingly i agree, but the option is there - just set max players to 8 and you're done.
Peet wrote:
Tada!
[...]the functionality is already implemented!
Re: limit player number to 8-10 per game.
Posted: 20 Jan 2009, 07:22
by Gota
how About setting an obligatory rank limit on big games?
the bigger the room the more experienced account you need to have.
In this way newbies will have to play some amount of smaller games where they can improve better and learn more useful things and when they get more experienced they can join bigger games.
This will ensure AT LEAST TO SOME EXTANT that newbie players will:
1) have better chances of improving.
2) bigger games will be compensated with better average player skill for the hardship of cooperation in big teams.
--edited--
If this is only done room side it won't be enough and will achieve practically nothing since players themselves will be able to host bigger games.
Nobody will agree to put a rank limit on a 16 player room cause of the fact it will be harder to get players so it has to be an all encompassing rule for the benefit of all
Re: limit player number to 8-10 per game.
Posted: 20 Jan 2009, 07:24
by zwzsg
Other way around:
- Newbies in overcrowded games.
- Pr0 in 1v1 games.
And then everybody will be happy!!
Also, misspellings are more visible when typed in capitals.
Re: limit player number to 8-10 per game.
Posted: 20 Jan 2009, 07:27
by Gota
sigh.
The point is that it is harder to learn to play better in overcrowded rooms.
This can also be done modside where a tag or a file is read by lobbies and than they prevent newbies from hosting big games of the particular mod and force hosted games of the mod to have ranks limits that do not allow newbies to join.
Re: limit player number to 8-10 per game.
Posted: 20 Jan 2009, 07:34
by zwzsg
From having played some 1v1 in TA against good players, I can tell you it doesn't teach you anything when you get (plane-)bombed or flash-rushed before even getting your first factory up. Only thing it does is frustrate you and making you want to stop playing. To learn to play, you need to get the possiblity to play a bit before dying. Which means either playing with people of your level, or playing large team games. Forcing newbs to be pro-stomped fifty time in a row won't make them better players.