Spring RTS Engine

Don't whine about double/tripple posts. We clean them up as soon as we see them.

SwiftSpear wrote:Don't whine about double/tripple posts. We clean them up as soon as we see them.

Noone was whining about them. Noize was responding to two posts. One was .funkymp noticing how there was an error when you posted comments that might have caused me to post 5 times. The other was me asking for an administrator to delete my duplicate posts. There is really no need for you to assert your authority here.

Ergh, you do know my post was deleted in the process, don't you?

It went about that we generally agree that using con units for eco isn't intended and that it's a good thing Caydr is going to nerf it.

>,<
the nerf REALLY isn't needed!

Min3mat wrote:>,<
the nerf REALLY isn't needed!

i agree, if anything, cons veh are bad atm. Slow and costly and hard to build stuff with (they jam or get in each others way)

Fakrs still pwn them hard.

If you play team game, and your teammates are defending etc. You can start making resources to the team with that tactic.

I made small silly contest:
http://taspring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?p=63656

Egarwaen wrote:Why's it give you a disadvantage? Remember, with all the guards, you can churn out units very quickly. With seven ACVs guarding a Core level 2 vehicle factory, you get an ACV in 10 seconds and a Goliath in 17.5. Assuming that you're using the ACVs for L2 economy on top of a solid L1 economy...

thats a very interesting math, although remember that those 7 acvs had to be pumped out somewhere and thats precisly what i meant because you couldnt have been pumping out acv's and attacking units at the same time. (note: pumping out 7 acv's might , or might not be fast depending on the resources you have at the time)
Intervaling them is also weak ...
so the time you spent on the 7 acvs pump might have been crucial and costed you the game.
i think as i've already said that only 2 plants is a feasible way of developing that econ, and i see it as very risky too but interesting.
ill try it out in my future games

Will the issue of subs and water units ever be fixed in AA?

The following link is a good discussion of how to get subs and the layering of water units to work correctly:

http://taspring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=4014

In essence there are some tags that need to be modified.

Furthermore, why is it that subs (except for the turreted "super" subs) do not shoot their torpedo's? How long has this been a problem? Can't they just get a "turret" launcher or something to make them work?

Thanks

The DF Emitter building still does not have an on/off button in the official release. I released a diff to make it work properly in case it's put in for the next release.

So, am i the only one experiencing a bugged catapult?

Chocapic wrote:thats a very interesting math,

Not math, I jumped into the game and tried it out in single player.

although remember that those 7 acvs had to be pumped out somewhere and thats precisly what i meant because you couldnt have been pumping out acv's and attacking units at the same time. (note: pumping out 7 acv's might , or might not be fast depending on the resources you have at the time)

It's not particularly slow, especially since each unit can guard the factory as soon as it rolls out the door. So unless your opponent using the 1xACV+fusion+MMM strategy can attack and kill you in that window, using only the units his factory's pumped out during its idle time, before your production speed advantage catches up... Remember, we're assuming you're on equal footing up until then. The ACV tactic grows your economy faster, which means that even if you have a short initial production gap, you can catch up very quickly.

As for why units produce resources at all, I don't know. Spring units don't seem to consume resources when moving, though some do when firing.

Peekaboom wrote: Furthermore, why is it that subs (except for the turreted "super" subs) do not shoot their torpedo's?

Spring bug.

FireCrack wrote:So, am i the only one experiencing a bugged catapult?

Make sure you don't have any data conflicts, like lose archives in the root spring directory, folders in the root spring directory that should be found in archives, or are playing a mod that is loading conflicting data (such as both xta and AA).

Egarwaen wrote:...Spring units don't seem to consume resources when moving...

Didn't realize this before. It is intended that they consume the energy they make when moving. Because this isn't happening (which is an engine issue) I'd suggest significantly lowering the energy production of all non-aircraft mobiles to compensate. Aircraft do use the energy when moving because their state is set to active upon take off for wing animations.

It appears that in Spring, energyuse is tied into active states (essentially on/off state, but can be triggered by other things, like aircraft when they take off). I think in the TA engine, it was tied into both movement and the active state.
Fixing it probably wouldn't be the easiest thing to do. It would involve something like abstracting energyuse out of the active state, but leaving the active state capable of controlling it. Then linking it into the move state as well.

If someone wont believe this, you can get +140M in 20 mins, with starting values 1000/1000, by using convehicles as a boost:


I think after 30 mins i can get +400M if i make hard work.

Egarwaen wrote:It's not particularly slow, especially since each unit can guard the factory as soon as it rolls out the door. So unless your opponent using the 1xACV+fusion+MMM strategy can attack and kill you in that window, using only the units his factory's pumped out during its idle time, before your production speed advantage catches up... Remember, we're assuming you're on equal footing up until then. The ACV tactic grows your economy faster, which means that even if you have a short initial production gap, you can catch up very quickly.

As for why units produce resources at all, I don't know. Spring units don't seem to consume resources when moving, though some do when firing.

the units have allways produced res, even in ota they did only in smaller scale. (go watch xta res income from con's and u'll see what i mean)

as for the catch up quickly it really depends a lot!
if were talking about a lvl2 plant with that idea you talked it might be even or maybe have a slight advantage for the con's guy, however what if were talking about lvl1 action ?
are you gonna pump, as the game starts, 7 con's ? cuz my 7 flashes (actually more.. cuz the flashes are easier to pump then cons) will eat you for dinner!

and there is that other problem , what will you do when the 7 cons are pumping attacking units ? have your econ stopped ? cause thats really bad..

u see i have no idea what this thread is about now.
its not as simple as cons are OP, its all about...everything...
i mean u try getting 7 cons immediately you are toast unless the com is nearby making LLT or something, but u wouldnt have the m
cons are quite expensive and should make res, they make not that much, and take a while to pay themselves back...besides how can it be "overpowered' when ur opponent will likely get as many cons or get a bigger army... -.- i give up on this thread...just reduce the res cons give by 40% or so to make the noobs happy -.-

Min3mat wrote:i mean u try getting 7 cons immediately you are toast unless the com is nearby making LLT or something, but u wouldnt have the m

We're assuming that you get the cons after getting a solid level 1 econ. What's so hard to understand about this?

cons are quite expensive and should make res, they make not that much, and take a while to pay themselves back...

Cons + MMM take less time to pay themselves off than a Fusion + MMM. And ACVs do make quite a lot of resources. This means that while they do "take a while" to pay themselves back, you're still better off in that respect than the guy who went fusion + MMM.

Chocapic wrote:the units have allways produced res, even in ota they did only in smaller scale.

Yes, I know. I've said so above. The issue is scale. Because of the amount of resources produced, relative to cost, they're currently a better buy than fusions + MMMs. Cut their resource production in half, and things become sane again.

are you gonna pump, as the game starts, 7 con's ? cuz my 7 flashes (actually more.. cuz the flashes are easier to pump then cons) will eat you for dinner!

No. Why would I? You tech to level 2 normally, then start using ACVs + MMMs (as necessary) for your economy. Besides, Construction Vehicles aren't really the problem. The problem is Advanced Construction Vehicles.

and there is that other problem , what will you do when the 7 cons are pumping attacking units ? have your econ stopped ?

Alternate Advanced Construction Vehicles and combat units. Each new ACV provides a big boost to your economy and boosts your construction rate. (TM has 14 guarding his L2 Vehicle Factory in that screenshot, which I think puts a Goliath's buildtime somewhere between 10 and 15 seconds and an ACV's between 5 and 7.)

Lol mat, I agree :)

No. Why would I? You tech to level 2 normally, then start using ACVs + MMMs (as necessary) for your economy. Besides, Construction Vehicles aren't really the problem. The problem is Advanced Construction Vehicles.

interesting however, have in mind that a solar costs 141m and 700e or something like that, and a construction vehicle (not advanced) costs 191m and 3000e or something close
as for outputs it goes for 0M,20E and 0.3M,27E respectively.

where is the construction vehicles are perfectly fine and adv arent ?
for what i see, aplying simple maths, and only considering metalcosts important here, to have a solar that would grant me 27E it goes for (1-(20/27))*141+141 wich is 177,66M cost, and it doesnt even let me have +0.3M income!

Chocapic wrote:where is the construction vehicles are perfectly fine and adv arent ?

Construction Vehicle (Core): Costs 192m/3599e, Produces 0.4m/27e
Construction KBot (Core): Costs 113m/1622e, Produces 0.2m/12e
Advanced Construction Vehicle (Core): Costs 552m/8712e, Produces 1.2m, 45e
Advanced Construction KBot (Core): Costs 319m/4342e, Produces 0.6m, 22e

Notice that the ACV produces twice as much metal and energy as the next closest unit, but costs only a little more metal and about twice the energy.

It's down to cost-to-benefit. The ACV produces enough metal and energy to make it worthwhile as a primary resource structure, combined with a couple MMMs and a healthy level 1 economy. The issue is that ACVs + MMMs are cheaper than fusions + MMMs and pay for their cost more quickly. What's so hard to understand about this?

Something really needs to be done about the flash/instigators. Currently, It feels like OTA all over again. I think that putting beamers and hllts back in will help. Mohos also need a large boost imo..i dont think .35 will be enough. I think it needs to be .4 or even .45. The Lvl 2 rushing that was happening before was much more tolerable than the flash/insti rushing we have now imo.

If you dont believe me, watch this replay : http://www.fileuniverse.com/?p=showitem&ID=2696 . It is not even flashes, instigators do the damage in this game. While GuiltySpark is a very good player, so is BigSteve, and I am not that bad myself. He owns the both of us(including our lvl 2 stuff) by sitting in his base spamming instigator tanks.