Spring RTS Engine

REVENGE wrote:

Dwarden wrote:they create unit specialised just for terrain "flatting" ...

capable build some 1x1 2x2 and 4x4 concrete plate

thus from "exploit/bug" became handy and fair feature

I'm going to test out a unit with a null 3do model that has footprints of various different sizes. All they'll do is deform the ground and put down a decal texture. If any of you guys think something like this specialized to terraforming the ground would be nice in gameplay, tell me about it. I could balance it out with massive build times and energy costs I suppose...or even make a specialized unit that can only do this type of terraforming.

EDIT: Wait a minute, terraforming isn't affected by buildtime...is it?

No it isn't, so I'd say keep it on a special unit and balance it with that unit's cost/speed/HP etc

then give that unit the ability to restore (but not repair/assist etc) as well, and call it a 'seige engineer' or something (i'm thinking fairly well armoured but slow?) - it'd be pretty cool

Oh, and mostly disabling deformation would make soft deformable brigdes like the ones on Yilith useless and not an option for mappers. Currently, after a naval bombardment, those can be passable by sea units. If it's a big problem, mappers can disable deformation anyway.

I think we could comprimise with this, how about halving the amount of deformation caused in 2.11 and creating a feature where the ground automatically "repairs itself"; a bit like autorepair for the units. This will create a situation where to create a impassible barrier of craters will need constant bombarding instead of just a single volley. I'm not an expert, but i think this would be probably have to be an engine feature.

Yes i also know its a bit unrealistic, but tas is about gameplay not realism...

If in doubt, say the nanites do it

Lippy wrote:creating a feature where the ground automatically "repairs itself"; a bit like autorepair for the units.

That's not doable ATM, the devs would have to add that to the engine and there's no way it'd go into 0.73b1 which the next AA release is geared for.

There are three main objectives for 2.2:

Make maps easier to make
Make AA come closer to its OTA roots
Make the gameplay longer lasting and smoother

All of these are served by removing terrain deformation except from super-powerful units. A mapper shouldn't have to worry about his work being used in a way against how he intended it as a result of exploitation of what is otherwise a feature.

For instance, dragon's teeth. First of all, having them flatten ground gives away their exact location. More importantly, it makes it possible to build things where the mapper did not want them to be built. There is only one logical solution.

Another example is artillery - why even bother trying to design a map for good gameplay if every single location on it is open to being basically removed from the game? Like, we all hate maps with a single chokepoint. Chokepoints in general can be very detrimental to gameplay if not used in a smart way. There should always be at least 2, preferably more like 6 ways to enter the choked area. If even one of those ways is removed from the game by artillery, the map isn't being played the way it was designed to be.

Make the gameplay longer lasting and smoother

you mean longer games ? please NO!

The length of the game depends entirely of who is playing really, speedmetal noobs can make a game last hours, but most games on normal maps can last anywhere from 10 - 40 minutes, with some exptions ofc. I think most games last long enough already.

Games are long enough.

It is highly dependend on the players and map, not so much on the mod.

The AA econ is fine atm, and the transition from lvl 1 to lvl 2 can be made very smooth on any map, thanks to the adv. solars or goes comined with metal makers.

Bhaal wrote:Make the gameplay longer lasting and smoother

you mean longer games ? please NO!

Seconded. A game should only last a long time if both players are evenly matched.

longer lasting gameplay =/= longer games

I mean, longer lasting enjoyable gameplay. Eliminate or improve things that aren't fun, and capitalize on things that are.

Caydr wrote: Another example is artillery - why even bother trying to design a map for good gameplay if every single location on it is open to being basically removed from the game? Like, we all hate maps with a single chokepoint. Chokepoints in general can be very detrimental to gameplay if not used in a smart way. There should always be at least 2, preferably more like 6 ways to enter the choked area. If even one of those ways is removed from the game by artillery, the map isn't being played the way it was designed to be.

I completely agree with some of this, the dragons teeth for example, but I still think that units such as heavy mines and tremors (pretty big stuff) should cause ground deformation- a couple of points.

-As far as mapping goes, a mapper can increase the hardness of a map if he wishes to completely prevent blocking off chokepoints- on the other hand, by removing almost all ground deforming weapons, you are preventing mappers from making maps that use that as an integral part of the map, since a mapper can decrease hardness but it wont effect weapons that leave no craters period. (I.E. no sandy beaches that crater at the drop of a hat)
- I have never been in a game where any player actually had the time to lay down rows and rows of heavy mines to make any meaningful change in the map terrain
-I'm pretty sure in most cases it would be a huge waste of micro, time, energy and metal, in a game where you are often constantly microing anyways- defensive is never a good way to play any game
-Even if someone did block off a chokepoint by blowing a huge trench into the ground, there are plenty of units in aa that let you get around deformation- all terrain spiders, crawling bombs, air transports, etc
-Terrain deformation does add an interesting element to gameplay on many maps, and just makes battles look more dramatic- not to mention as long as it takes some effort to deform terrain I think that it is not very gameplay breaking
-It gives a purpose to the restore command, (although it's too bad that restore works so slowly)

not that it matters too much either way, as i've never seen a player trying to abuse ground deformation, (except for dragons teeth etc.) but I think it's pretty cool the way it is, for the most part.

+7.3

Well, in relation to mapping...

What caydr is doing is understandable. For example, I imagine than many/most of you prolly havn't looked at a genuine ota heightmap before.

They used a pretty light color of grey for anything called land, and rest was a gradient going lighter or darker (of course there was a little variation there).

There was absolutely no variation on flatland, it was 100% completely flat. In spring it's not like that (it can be made to be) generally. I'm not saying this is a bad idea, but I'm a little worried that this might make maps specifically made for AA a bit boorish in original design, however I am curious how it will pan out.

BTW in case anyone cares all of my maps have hardness 800 (no deform unless maybe a nuke hits there or you pound it with a guardian for 20 minutes).

THis whole thing does trouble me a bit though in the fact that I hate to see the community seperated as far as mappers go. We'll see how it pans out.

I'm not really seperating anything, I'm just going a lot closer to XTA standards.

Two of the four new units are now 100% ready to go and fully implemented. The other two I've still gotta make scripts for.

Caydr wrote:There are three main objectives for 2.2:

Make maps easier to make
Make AA come closer to its OTA roots
Make the gameplay longer lasting and smoother

All of these are served by removing terrain deformation except from super-powerful units. A mapper shouldn't have to worry about his work being used in a way against how he intended it as a result of exploitation of what is otherwise a feature.

For instance, dragon's teeth. First of all, having them flatten ground gives away their exact location. More importantly, it makes it possible to build things where the mapper did not want them to be built. There is only one logical solution.

Another example is artillery - why even bother trying to design a map for good gameplay if every single location on it is open to being basically removed from the game? Like, we all hate maps with a single chokepoint. Chokepoints in general can be very detrimental to gameplay if not used in a smart way. There should always be at least 2, preferably more like 6 ways to enter the choked area. If even one of those ways is removed from the game by artillery, the map isn't being played the way it was designed to be.

You forgot that I can make my own inlet into a chokepoint with roughly the same amount of effort. Or that since you see the deformation (As Min3Mat did in a fairly public replay) you can prevent the activity by... wait for it... destroying the region.

To be perfectly honest, if a mapper doesn't want his or her map to change, he or she will turn up the hardness. It's their choice, and they have a remedy.

Hm... Well, it's only a matter of a global find&replace. I could try increasing to .25 or something for now and see how that works. I just really want OTA:AA players to come into something they're familiar with and I don't see ground deformation as being something that's necessarily always positive for gameplay.




//oh. damn it all, i forgot team coloring.

The only problems I see with hardness are when you have chokepoint maps with deformable terrain - while I'm sure the mapper intended for it to be used to knock down mountains, the usual effect is that guardian-fire bombarding the chokepoints digs a big hole that, if not blocking advances, at least makes them slow enough that charging through will be slowed down to a suicidal rate. And AA is slow enough as is. On wide open maps, it's no problem - but otherwise it can make an already porcy game even worse.

Yeah... I think I'm going to leave it as-is for 2.2 and make any necessary changes in 2.21... There's just way too much I've still gotta do. Going through 250 weapon entries to decide how much terrain damage isn't something I really want to put on top of that.

~~~

It looks like real life is catching up with me. I'm going to have to finish these anti-air kbots, post the mod pack, and call it quits for a while.