Spring RTS Engine

paulicus 25 wrote:i don't get it. What are half these units. Are they unique to spring?? Ive got the latest and biggest TA patch on my regular TA and ive never heard of a packO.

It's a mod, hence the name of this section of the forums; mods

Machiosabre wrote:

paulicus 25 wrote:i don't get it. What are half these units. Are they unique to spring?? Ive got the latest and biggest TA patch on my regular TA and ive never heard of a packO.

It's a mod, hence the name of this section of the forums; mods

Also, this ain't TA, this is Absolute Annihilation for Spring.

Min3mat wrote:

regardless of whether it is really as bad as he claims, I'm going to reduce con units' free resources by about half or so.

please don't. there is NO reason to do this and doing it would be completely and utterly over the top, do not change this mod because a noob got owned! love the rest of the changes but i will bitch about that change!

Agreed, NO reason whatsoever to reduce them, theyre fine as they are.

Also, 10 DPS reduction on peewees? I have no idea how much % that would be, but it seems a bit extreme! a pewee should beat an AK 1v1 still, while a flash shouldnt beat an instigator or if so, with extremely low health. Keep that in mind when doing the changes!

Also since youre not removing metal gens (i like the current changes), are they removed from ctrl-b?

metal generators are being removed

not according to the latest log

quote]regardless of whether it is really as bad as he claims, I'm going to reduce con units' free resources by about half or so. [/quote]

What's the reason to not change them ?
And don't say "It will screw gameplay" because nobody know.
I remember people saying that with ghosted building...and it don't have screwed the gameplay. (Though, you can still dislike it)

I did some math, here are the results.

A Moho Metal Maker produces +11 metal for every -770 energy. Divide 770 by 11 and we get 70 for our energy to metal conversion. It costs -5 metal and -10928 energy. 10928 divided by 70 equals 152 metal. So our final cost for a MMM is 157 metal. An advanced vehicle con produces +1.2 metal and +45 energy. 45 divided by 70 is 0.64 rounded down. So an adv con makes 1.2 + 0.64 equals 1.84 metal per second. An adv con costs -552 metal and - 8712 energy to produce. 8712 divided by 70 is about 124 metal worth of energy. So an adv veh con cost 552 plus 124 = 676 worth of metal. An MMM can support 17 adv veh cons, so that is 152 divided by 17 equals 9 metal per con. So for metal maker + adv con we get 675 for adv con making 1.84 metal per tick. If we divide 675 by 1.84 we get 366.

Conclusion: An adv veh con takes 366 ticks to pay for itself and then produces 1.84 metal per tick afterwards.

Let's contrast this to wind, without showing all my work this time. A wind costs 145 metal (metal + energy combined) and will produce 0.17 metal per tick (assuming an average wind of +12) taking 264 ticks to pay for itself and then only produce 0.17 metal per windmill afterwards.

Conclusion: You would need 10 windmills to produce as much metal as a single adv veh con and it would take 72% as long to pay for itself.

Now I will do fusion without showing any work. It takes 467 ticks to pay for itself and then makes +12.14 metal per tick after that.

Conclusion: It takes 6.5 adv veh cons to produce as much metal as a fusion and it will take 78% as long to pay for itself.

Now you add the fact that cons are mobile and can help build stuff and we end up with my final ...


Conclusion: You'd be stupid to ever build Fusion / Moho Metal Maker combos until this is fixed.

PS. I wonder, why do units create any resources at all? It seems counter-intuitive.

edit: I should point out I did this all on core, btw.

something Day saw, and i checked :)

ArmGeo's produce 350 energy
CorGeo's produce 250 energy

im gonna try having a look for the replay of where trademark spammed out con vehicles and show the difference in his eco - spamming con vehicles for E and mine from going solars/wind (up to level2), its a bloody huge difference in energy

NOiZE wrote:something Day saw, and i checked :)

ArmGeo's produce 350 energy
CorGeo's produce 250 energy

same with hazardous geo's

believe arm is 1500
core is 1000

or it might be the other way around

.funkymp wrote:

NOiZE wrote:something Day saw, and i checked :)

ArmGeo's produce 350 energy
CorGeo's produce 250 energy

same with hazardous geo's

believe arm is 1500
core is 1000

or it might be the other way around

Yeah, hazardous geo / MMM is the best route for resources in spring if it is available. For arm it pays for itself in 85 ticks and then makes +21.5 metal after that. For core it pays for itself in 121 ticks and makes +14.3 metal.

ok heres the replay http://www.savefile.com/files/9960237

as a example 13 mins in - trademark has +675 (ish) energy income off his con vehicles (not taking into account his wind gens/solar)

which is slightly more than herra has with his adv solars/solars which gives him +660 energy income

overall trademarks about +200 e up on everyone else

another example - 16mins in - trademark has +1300, just under +1000 off his con vehicles.

which is way more than anyone else at that stage, take a look

det wrote:Conclusion: You'd be stupid to ever build Fusion / Moho Metal Maker combos until this is fixed.

What are the numbers like for the halved values?

Oh, and there is one reason to build fusions: more energy/footprint.

PS. I wonder, why do units create any resources at all? It seems counter-intuitive.

All units produce a little energy. IIRC, in OTA they consumed exactly this much energy when active (moving or firing), with some units with particularly big guns eating more when firing. Commander, of course, produces a small amount of energy and metal to help get things started.

I'm not sure why construction units produce so much metal/energy. Sure, you could theoretically use the income from a couple construction units to recover in a team game, but you're probably going to need resource gifts from the rest of your team to get going again before the game ends anyway.

det wrote:
Conclusion: You'd be stupid to ever build Fusion / Moho Metal Maker combos until this is fixed.


Hmmm I wonder how stupid you'll feel when youve just spammed con unit 8 and 10 goliaths roll into your base and you have nothing to defend with because youve left your factory building cons for 10 minutes.

NOiZE wrote:something Day saw, and i checked :)

ArmGeo's produce 350 energy
CorGeo's produce 250 energy

Conversely, core's fusion reactors produce an extra... whatever amount... of energy as well. Same for adv fusions.

So arm has an advantage for geos, core has the advantage in fusions.

BigSteve wrote:Hmmm I wonder how stupid you'll feel when youve just spammed con unit 8 and 10 goliaths roll into your base and you have nothing to defend with because youve left your factory building cons for 10 minutes.

I must be missing something. How's that relevant? Not only can the con units help build other con units, they can build a second factory.

"Egarwaen wrote"
I must be missing something. How's that relevant? Not only can the con units help build other con units, they can build a second factory.

you are missing something. the 3309 metal, 18500 energy and buildtime it takes for the second factory your first factory is still making cons at 500m a piece makes cons this tactic cannot work, assuming your playing someone with atleast average ability then you're doomed...

BigSteve wrote:you are missing something. the 3309 metal, 18500 energy and buildtime it takes for the second factory your first factory is still making cons at 500m a piece makes cons this tactic cannot work, assuming your playing someone with atleast average ability then you're doomed...

Except those cons have a significantly better return-on-investment than a fusion reactor. And you can interleave con production and tank production, and use the con vehicles to speed up both.

Like I said, any half decent player will crush you, building 1 level2 factory is hard enough, nevermind building another and spamming 500 m con units at the same time

In pretty much all of the games Ive played this week against decent opponents Im 100% sure I would have lost if Id spent resources on con units rather than units.
i suppose I could try and emp and then reclaim my enemies with my con army hehe

I just read my 2 previous posts, they seem a bit flamy, they arent meant to be my lighthearted tone doesn't come across in text

Caydr wrote:
Conversely, core's fusion reactors produce an extra... whatever amount... of energy as well. Same for adv fusions.

So arm has an advantage for geos, core has the advantage in fusions.

Thats just silly IMO. At least compensate the costs so they pay themselves back roughly in the same time. Its like making krogs more powerful because flashes own... Im all for different units, but having a powerplant being 50% more cost efficient just because of side differences is well... ...silly!