Spring RTS Engine

Thanks for the replys :) And great to see that Savant himself gave you his blessing :D

Optimus Prime wrote:

Min3mat wrote:u mean a
feature from teh mod
suppose but i think that you should just make it repair slowly in space. u know engineers getting bored and fixing things etc.
landing for repairs is silly IMO. But w/e it is your mod and a good one at that

no silly not. Imagine that you need the energy from your weapons and your engine for your nanobots for their recontruction. So you have to stop engine and weaponry (the weapons will stop anyway when repairing) for your repair. That is like it was and is, but like i said i will have a look on that and if it looks good by staying all the time in air, i will change that.
But i think the next version will not be out before a week so i have enough time to test that.

Didnt ships always autorepair slowly in space? If you mean other units repairing the ships in space, there was the fulcrum support ship that repaired ships in space by having them "land" on it like a carrier of sorts. I personally like ships autorepairing, it simulates crews working to repair the damage and it gives more survivablilty to your capital ships.

comment from a real world engineer ... there is a limit to how much structural repairs you can do without at least going into port. On the cap ships some degree of self repair would be expected (from engineers getting bored) but for fighters -a fighter pilot is hardly going to do an EVA on his own craft while under power... Thats my 2c anyway. Keep up the good work!

IMSabbel wrote:IIRC, if set the bottom will cause the things NEVER to set foot on land, or even try (there was the comment on not using it for transports, as they wouldnt be able to pick up units).

eh what exactly must i write in the unit fbi for staying in air?

Optimus Prime wrote:

IMSabbel wrote:IIRC, if set the bottom will cause the things NEVER to set foot on land, or even try (there was the comment on not using it for transports, as they wouldnt be able to pick up units).

eh what exactly must i write in the unit fbi for staying in air?

in the fbi:

dontland=1

But this was introduced in build 662, and is not yet in the current version.

quick note, that in space going into port gives you more supplies are tools. being in space does not take energy to site around as there is not force pulling you in one direction that needs to be compensated for.

on more important concerns, the radar targeting facility is currently built underwater and is very difficult to destroy or find. it should be changed to be build above the water other wise it is almost invicible.

MrSpontaneous wrote:quick note, that in space going into port gives you more supplies are tools. being in space does not take energy to site around as there is not force pulling you in one direction that needs to be compensated for.

yes i know, but IMSabbel said that its not possible atm to make units stay in air (without moving) and if they circly in air like now, that definitely needs energy

MrSpontaneous wrote:on more important concerns, the radar targeting facility is currently built underwater and is very difficult to destroy or find. it should be changed to be build above the water other wise it is almost invicible.

thanks - will be fixed in next version

in case it has not been mentioned yet (don't want to sift through this post)
another problem is that units with missles or bombs like to group up and then shoot eachother with said armerments before spreading out (which is quit irritating). said units tend to bunch up while proceeding to a target so this is a problem. just letting ya know

MrSpontaneous wrote:in case it has not been mentioned yet (don't want to sift through this post)
another problem is that units with missles or bombs like to group up and then shoot eachother with said armerments before spreading out (which is quit irritating). said units tend to bunch up while proceeding to a target so this is a problem. just letting ya know

yes i know this problem. The problem on this problem is, that its spring and therefore not fixable with making a mod. I hope that some day there will be a formation (ok there are still some, but they dont work) or a better pathfinding AI.
BTW, this is the reason for making these new rocketships fireing their rockets in a vertical launch (no they are not ig yet).

FINAL FRONTIER "The Next Generation Of War" 1.11
========================================================

- Balance: Increased Damage of Bombers vs Buildings and Battleships (+100 per Bomb)
- Balance: Decreased Cost of Exceter -600 Metal, also decreased Weapon Damage -10% and changed the main turrets to only target big ships
- Balance: Decreased Cost of Super Heavy ODS -200 Metal
- Balance: Increased Range of most Defenses +10%
- Balance: Decreased costs of armteleporter -20000 energy
- Balance: Increased LOS of all ODS 650 (500)
- Balance: Reduced Buildtime of Eclipse 12000 (14000) and its not more able to target fighters
- Changed: Increased some groundboxes of some units (for example the lvl 3 con units)
- Changed: Color of the Nailgun model (gattlinguns) more yellow, to see them better on dark maps
- Changed: Reduced Buildtime of Nanotower 12000 (17000)
- Changed: Burnblow=0 to some gattlinguns (optical improvement)
- Changed: Increased Energyuse of Metalmakers and Moho metalmakers +10/Metal (Metalmakers now 90/1 Moho Metalmakers 80/1 -Energy/+Metal)
- Changed: Reduced Speed of Spyprobes -10%, so they will be hit easier
- Changed: Increased Radar Range of Long Range Sensor Array 6000 (5500)
- Changed: Target Facilities are now only buildable on ground
- Added FirstStrike Long Range Missile Support Cruiser (Arm) (lvl 3)
- Added Lvl 4 Shipyard for Core
- Added Devastator as Titanunit (Core), buildable at lvl 4 shipyard

I wanted to upload it in combination with my new map, but the map produced a lot of problems. Now i will make it only with a cosmos stype skymap, but atm i dont have any motivation for that so i dont want to let you wait any more.

Optimus Prime wrote:

MrSpontaneous wrote:quick note, that in space going into port gives you more supplies are tools. being in space does not take energy to site around as there is not force pulling you in one direction that needs to be compensated for.

yes i know, but IMSabbel said that its not possible atm to make units stay in air (without moving) and if they circly in air like now, that definitely needs energy

I didnt say that!
But otoh, there was another source commit concerning the air-hovering after that post, so i dont know what the exact behaviour will be, but expect that with the next spring version (whenever that may be), the noland tag will provide at least some kind of adjustability...

IMSabbel wrote:

Optimus Prime wrote:

MrSpontaneous wrote:quick note, that in space going into port gives you more supplies are tools. being in space does not take energy to site around as there is not force pulling you in one direction that needs to be compensated for.

yes i know, but IMSabbel said that its not possible atm to make units stay in air (without moving) and if they circly in air like now, that definitely needs energy

I didnt say that!
But otoh, there was another source commit concerning the air-hovering after that post, so i dont know what the exact behaviour will be, but expect that with the next spring version (whenever that may be), the noland tag will provide at least some kind of adjustability...

Oh sorry, so i missunderstood you. But i think when this noland tag is included, its much easier to implement that. So i will wait for the next spring version :)

I played this mod when it first came out for OTA and have always enjoyed it, so I'm glad to see it being developed for Spring. So far, it's turning out very well. And now that AAI works for it, I can play to my heart's content.

A couple of comments...

Core's lvl 1 "laser" defensive turrets (Scythe and Reaver) are MUCH more effective than Arm's "ballistic" equivalents (Fury and Slugger). I don't remember them being so much better in the TA version, so perhaps this is due to Spring's different physics engine. The Fury hardly ever hits unless it gets a lucky angle or its target collides with something and stops. The case of the Slugger is even worse because its bullets can damage your own base when fired at a fast mover passing overhead. This deprives Arm of an effective anti-swarm defense until the Flakker at lvl 2, a huge advantage for Core. (I usually go straight for Morningstars, which are metal-costly.)

(I'm not really sure how you could solve the Slugger friendly fire problem, except by giving their bullets a lifespan or maybe creating a "medium" category of units and telling Sluggers not to fire at small units.)

Also, the capital ships don't have "nochase" tags for small units, so they often trundle across the map in pursuit of probes etc. that they cannot possibly catch.

I like the Devastator unit, but it rolls back and forth so violently that it almost makes me seasick. It looks weird for such a large unit to move that way.

One last small point... the mod's internal unit names are seriously messed up. I realize it's a pain to change these, but it's even more of a pain for others to work on the mod because they have to open every single file to see what it contains. (For example, the Radar-Jamming Frigate's internal name is "ARMFTLDRIVE." This might complicate things when/if you add the actual FTL Drive.)

I hope this doesn't sound too harsh. I criticize because I love! Keep up the good work.

I love the devistator. I sepnt the entire game trying to build it, then i was blowed up with 12 % to go!

Core's lvl 1 "laser" defensive turrets (Scythe and Reaver) are MUCH more effective than Arm's "ballistic" equivalents (Fury and Slugger). I don't remember them being so much better in the TA version, so perhaps this is due to Spring's different physics engine. The Fury hardly ever hits unless it gets a lucky angle or its target collides with something and stops. The case of the Slugger is even worse because its bullets can damage your own base when fired at a fast mover passing overhead. This deprives Arm of an effective anti-swarm defense until the Flakker at lvl 2, a huge advantage for Core. (I usually go straight for Morningstars, which are metal-costly.)

I know that the core weapon hits more often than arm does, but when i remember correctly, i tested them both and they were nearly equal. The point is, that i tested them against gunships and not against fast fighters. I have to test that for the next version more in detail, cause i noticed the advantage vs probes and fast fighters too.

Also, the capital ships don't have "nochase" tags for small units, so they often trundle across the map in pursuit of probes etc. that they cannot possibly catch.

What is the nochase tag?

I like the Devastator unit, but it rolls back and forth so violently that it almost makes me seasick. It looks weird for such a large unit to move that way

Sorry, but i think that is spring. I dont know how i can change that. (tell me if you have an idea).

One last small point... the mod's internal unit names are seriously messed up. I realize it's a pain to change these, but it's even more of a pain for others to work on the mod because they have to open every single file to see what it contains. (For example, the Radar-Jamming Frigate's internal name is "ARMFTLDRIVE." This might complicate things when/if you add the actual FTL Drive.)

If you download the first release of FF 0.013a (or so), there is an exel file or so, which has a table with all units and their internal names. Just download it and it should help you.
Thanks for your detailed feedback!

I love the devistator. I sepnt the entire game trying to build it, then i was blowed up with 12 % to go!

Try to build it when you have a metal income of at least 300 (better 400) metal. Than it should work and you have enough metal to build a defense and other ships.

Optimus Prime wrote:

Try to build it when you have a metal income of at least 300 (better 400) metal. Than it should work and you have enough metal to build a defense and other ships.

This is what makes FF really unfun to play on non-metal maps. The first 10 minutes of the game is spent playing Sim-Space, since the turrets are powerful enough to kill any level 1 fighter that could be used to raid, and every ship (even the tiny level 1 fighters and such) drains 20 or more metal when being built by a factory+comm.

My suggestion to fix this: cut the HP of all ships in half. Reduce the hp of all turrets by 2/3. Reduce all economic costs by half. This will keep your big-bang showy gameplay, but make it so that when 4 of my missile fighters shoot something, it dies, instead of taking half a minute to do any worthwhile damage.

Of course, this will give a large advantage to longer ranged units, but long ranged units were already quite powerful, so balance should improved.

The biggest problem with FF is that it caters to the porcing style. It is VERY easy to build a lot of turrets and then just slowly tech up to a bunch of near-unstoppable big ships, while more or less ignoring any attack, since the weapons of lighter ships are so worthless. Honestly, I shouldn't have to wait until tech level 2 to get any kind of ship that does worthwhile damage to a base (the bomber).

Anyways, that's my suggestion. If you think its crazy, I'll put together a test version sometime in the next month and see how it plays.

I agree with Nemo. right now FF, though really fun, is a little top heavy on the cost/useage thing. I think fighters need to be more powerful and usefull, in general.

i understand what you want.
Its right, that you can defend easier than in XTA or AA AT START (later in game its much harder). But where is the problem? I NEVER play a metal map and i reach the point where it begins to become more interesting fast enough.
In XTA or AA all units are very slow (in comparison to the spacecrafts in FF) so you dont have to move minutes just to reach the enemies base.

I think if you reduce the HP by half you destroy one of the main points of FF: the long fights. Believe me when i say that decreasing HP by half will destroy the feeling of a battleship or any other ship. Think of a Broadside which dies in 10 sec by an attack of 20 fighters - that would suck in my eyes.

Its right that you need 5-10 min to build your eco, but i also had some games, where it was easy to destroy the eco of my enemy in the first 5-10 mins.
Just to tell you some ways to destroy the eco in the first 5 mins:

- destroy the construction units. They are expensive and weak
- destroy the mexes and energy. They are weak and without energy the enemy nearly cant do anything

You wont kill your enemy completely, but destroying parts of his eco can be the win in the later game.
For me its not a disadvantage that you have a start where its easy to defend, because on this way nearly all games i had didnt need to be restarted after the first 20 mins (without player drops). In other mods its easy to rush and to destroy your enemy in 5-10 mins, but is that good? I personally like long games cause i like it more to have ONE good game than 10 small ones.
You can change the HP yourself, but i think that after some games you will see what i mean and change them back.

Zoombie wrote:I agree with Nemo. right now FF, though really fun, is a little top heavy on the cost/useage thing. I think fighters need to be more powerful and usefull, in general.

eh do we play different games? Fighters are the most powerfull units for ther costs... just test them out with cheat or so and you will see what i mean.

Edit: The point where i agree is that the start is a bit to slow. But changing costs or HP would be the wrong way in my eyes. One solution would be to increase the commanders metal income or the income of the normal mexes. I will test that for the next version, but dont think that i will make a rushgame out of FF where the fastest rusher will win the game.

Optimus Prime wrote:

Its right that you need 5-10 min to build your eco, but i also had some games, where it was easy to destroy the eco of my enemy in the first 5-10 mins.
Just to tell you some ways to destroy the eco in the first 5 mins:

- destroy the construction units. They are expensive and weak
- destroy the mexes and energy. They are weak and without energy the enemy nearly cant do anything

This is nearly impossible against a porcing player since turrets are so overpowered compared to level one ships.

There is no way you can tell me that early fighters are the most effective for their cost. Honestly, arm's level 1 fighters are completely worthless, except to kill other level 1 fighters. The assault starfighter is decent against completely undefended buildings, but you need at least 15 of them to do any kind of worthwhile damage. And one freakin' turret can kill the lot of them.

Perhaps you misunderstood what I meant with the economy. Yes, it should take some time to build up the economy, but I should be able to do other things at the same time. Every FF game I've played, the first 5-10 minutes have been NOTHING BUT trying to avoid nanostall while producing a handful of ships that all got slaughtered by a turret or two. Personally, I find sitting and ordering mexes+solars + a turret or two to kill fighters boring. Maybe other FF players like it. I don't know.

The HP drop - battleships will be even more destructive than they were before, since they tend to have the most powerful weapons. Besides, maybe then having fighter cover will actually MEAN something, since right now I can march a few big ships whereever I want, regardless of their lack of anti-fighter weapons. Big ships SHOULD require protection from fighters, because otherwise they're completely unstoppable and can only be killed by other, equally powerful ships.

i agree with your point that you should be able to do something at start different than only spam mexes, but i dont agree that fighters are useless.
Yes the are useless against buildings and thats one of the rock paper scissor system of FF. I remember the last game, where my thunderlancers cant move one screen without going down by about 30 lvl 2 fighters.
(I edited the post above this before u wrote your post, so i will repeat)

yes i want to make the start *a bit* faster, but not of the cost of the actual gameplay.
I think that increasing the lvl 1 mexes income and/or the coms income should help a lot.
So all should reach lvl 2 faster and the income should be so, that you can build units at the same time while developing too.
Another advantage would be, that the mid and late game would be uneffected by this.

So I have a beef,

I was playing a 4 on 4 and the other team had a very clever strategy of sending 3 of their 4 command ships out together to take out bases right at the start, which was annoying but honestly a good strategy... however, to counter this I sent out my command ship hopeing to take out their 3 ship with mines explosion...

however what happened is that my ships explosion was so small and weak that I did 1/3 damage to the ship I was touching and 0 damage to the one sitting behind it, meanwhile the fighters that finished me off were out of range and completely unharmed

I'm not sure how this could be fixed exactly, but my suggestion is for the com death explosion to be big enough to hit attacking fighters, and strong enough to do at least 2/3 damage to an enemy com.