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Posted: 27 Aug 2006, 17:09
by Machiosabre
it does sort of look like a gigantic wolverine.
Posted: 27 Aug 2006, 17:23
by KlavoHunter
Pxtl wrote:Machiosabre wrote:I have one suggestion regarding amphibians, the poison arrow sucks, it's so slow at everything it has a hard time fighting lvl1 kbots, I'd suggest making it sort of the same as a reaper, but more expensive to make up for it being amphibious.
The triton and crock seem to work pretty good though.
Idunno, I'd have fun with it. Core's already got an "amphibious assault tank" - in the Croc. If, as you say, the poisoin arrow really needs to be revamped, you could do it as something special. Like a superslow-superheavy tank, or a mobile amphibious artillery unit with antinaval damage (so you basically get a small mobile Guardian). Considering the slope-tolerance of amphibs, an amphib-arty unit would be freakishly useful even on non-water maps like AltoredDivide..
Yes, the Poison Arrow is ridiculously underused. Those who can afford them can pretty much also afford the even better Shiva (As I assume you're building these things from an Underwater Complex). It needs to become something special to get used.
For some reason, the idea of a "anti-fortification" unit sounds attractive. Which sounds really particularly good for a "small Guardian" with high-trajectory fire. Maybe replace that big gun on the Poison Arrow with a Guardian's cannon, and then mebbe add 2 smaller turrets on the sides with an LLT/Instigator laser, or a Flamethrower each for close-in self-defense.
Posted: 27 Aug 2006, 20:54
by Neddie
Molloy wrote:Hovers are great on specific maps, I've absolutely pummeled people with them on Small Supreme Battlefield.
They're perfect just the way they are.
I'm kind of dissapointed that LV3 Kbots are still in this mod. I was sort of hoping they'd be more of an emphasis on large scale battles in the late game like in OTA, rather than a few tactical battles with superunits.
It'd also be nice to see a little more simplification, with more units removed. I'm pretty good at AA now, but I've still not built many of these units, or know what the hell they do. You can't expect people to rememeber how effective 300 units are in relation to each other.
Of course the noobs will always say More = Better. And the noobs are essentiel to keeping the mod the most popular in Spring.
Good work, trying to make anybody who disagrees with your opinion by default a "noob" - somebody has certainly been paying attention to how politics and the masses work.
I personally agree on the point of L3, I don't use them much, after all; but I would like to see more different units elsewhere. I would even like L2 hover, though like Molloy I agree that they are damn useful as is, given a particular situation.
So, I would like to say, More with Thought = Better. Like that air unit that loads and captures, or a unit that runs as a ground decoy, or many of the other ideas that haven't been publicly aired yet.
Posted: 27 Aug 2006, 21:33
by Caydr
Forboding Angel wrote:Caydr, a huge problem that I keep forgetting to mention...
L2 Vehicles can climb better than lv1. That is bad. It should be the other way around.
Personally I suggest giving lv1 vehicles a maxslope of 28 - 30 and lv2 24 - 25. This would make vehicles much more attractive in the early game.
I see no evidence of this whatsoever in my moveinfo file. In fact, larger size should actually make large units have a harder time finding an area of slope that's wide enough for them to climb. Where are you getting your information?
Leveler groundflash fixed.
Going to work on amphibious tanks some more as regards their cost/effectiveness.
L3 could be removed, but why? There's no limit to the number of unit or weapon IDs anymore, and they do add something to the game, even if they are only used very rarely (as they should be).
Posted: 27 Aug 2006, 21:36
by Cabbage
and the razorback/kargenth (which are the most commonly used) arn't nearly as powerful as people make out. (same with all of htem really)
Posted: 27 Aug 2006, 22:29
by Egarwaen
After seeing NOiZE use a swarm of them in a game today, I definitely agree with the L1 fighter nerf. I was totally wrong there, they'd still be viable at that price.
Posted: 27 Aug 2006, 22:45
by Caydr
Once 2.2 (or 2.21, if necessary) is out, I'm going to try and find some time for AWS (a small simple project TBH), then putting the finishing touches on RealOTA... then it's time for nonstop GEM work again.
Point here is, if you've got anything to say that isn't on my recent todo, changelog, or been acknowledged by myself since I posted those, this is the time to tell me about it. After this next release I may not have much time for AA for about 2-8 months.
Posted: 27 Aug 2006, 22:54
by KDR_11k
Hm, I can give you the ammunition script I use for GINTA (or you can just grab it from the version that's up for download), the realism-like mod I'm currently tinkering with. That would fit well into AWS and could be modified to handle fuel, too. Combine that with the airplane fuel feature that's in 73b1 and you could even simulate that aspect of [console] Wars, except for the self-destructing ships when the fuel runs out. Or did you want to leave that out?
Posted: 27 Aug 2006, 23:10
by Caydr
Fuel will definitely be used, and if you could do something for ammunition as well that'd be pretty cool.
Latest changelog:
Removed some unused weapon entries
Eliminated impact physics for all common weapons
Liche nuke AoE increased to 256 (128), damage vs superweapons fixed
Maverick damage per hit reduced to 75, switched to buckshot (10),
reloadtime increased to 3 (0.985), has less accuracy and wide spray,
AoE increased to 12 (8); effective DPS is now 250 (300)
Sniper weapon bug fixed, it now only hits one target rather than an
entire row, minimum distance from enemy units for cloaking to work
increased to 80 (72)
EMP missile paralyzetime increased to 30 (20), range increased to
6000 (4500)
Adjusted anti-nuke properties so they shouldn't have occasional
problems intercepting nukes anymore
Commander explosion damage doubled (25000->50000)
All massive explosions now leave larger, deeper craters
Plasma battery low trajectory fire now have normal (larger) AoE
Movable nanotower bug fixed, they should also no longer attempt
to repair or reclaim things beyond their nano range
Beamer damage increased to 28 (27) per "zing"
Vehicle factory metal cost reduced 100
Twilight minimum cloaking distance from enemy units increased to
48 (30)
Morty buildtime reduced by about 1200 units (6400->5200)
Commander metal value reduced (15000->2500)
Arm Lancet logo fixed
Arm Moho Geothermal energy output reduced to 1250 (compared with
Core's 1000 output)
Prude HP increased to 12500 (8000), energy storage set to 1500 (0),
metal cost reduced 10% (1176->1058), energy cost reduced 25%
(32307->24230)
Behemoth HP increased to 7500 (5000) and no longer targets aircraft
Moho metal extractor extraction rate increased to 0.004 (0.0035)
Advanced construction vehicle build rate increased to 250 (200)
Arm moho metal extractor can now cloak for 50 energy and is always
radar-invisible; description changed to reflect this
Packo description changed to "Pop-Up Missile Battery"; SAM changed
to "Hardened Missile Battery"; Circular Saw and Eradicator changed
to "Medium-Range Missile Battery"; All related special damage
values removed
Flare efficiency (0.9->0.8) and launching rate (0.9->1.5) reduced
on AWACS aircraft
Flare dropping rate on Peeper reduced to 5 (3), efficiency reduced
to 0.75 (0.9)
Pitbull, Viper weapon AoE increased to 24 (16)
Construction aircraft workertime reduced to 45 (50), advanced
construction aircraft to 80 (100), construction seaplane to 100
(200)
Construction seaplane metal cost reduced 100 (330->230), energy
cost reduced 10000 (19000->9000), build time by 10000 (30000->
20000)
Radar tower detection ranges reduced
Basic fighter energy cost increased 30%, metal cost increased 20%,
buildtime increased 10%
Basic air transport energy cost reduced 50%, metal cost reduced 40%,
buildtime reduced 30%, HP increased 10%, "single-use" flares added
Paralyzers should now be more effective
Flak range increased 10%
Stumpy, Raider HP and range increased 50 units, rate of fire reduced
25%, damage increased 30%
Blade energy cost increased 25%, metal cost increased 10%, buildtime
increased 5%, HP reduced 50 units
Flash turning/accel/brake increased 10%, metal cost reduced 5%
Recluse HP reduced 50 units
Thud HP increased to 900 (870)
Rapier, plasma battery, leveler groundflash size reduced
Level 2 aircraft plant energy cost increased by 10000 (22000->32000)
Default explosions disabled for most small weapons
Maverick holster/unholster animation speed boosted
Flash/Gator aiming rate increased (~150->200/175 respective)
Fixed erroneous spelling of "BlackHydra" armor category in many
different weapon files (big thanks to TradeMark)
Fixed erroneous special damage entries in Dragon's Maw and Dragon's
Claw weapon entries (more thanks to TradeMark)
Bladewing metal cost increased by 6, energy cost increased by 250
Gunship brake rate reduced 25%, acceleration reduced 20%, speed
reduced 15%, rotation reduced 10%
Juno should now function properly, it won't randomly fail to damage
radar-related structures and units, AoE increased to 2048 (1280),
pulse cruising altitude increased fourfold
Warrior metal cost increased by 40 (208->248), buildtime increased
by 400 (4104->4504), HP reduced by 175 (1475->1300), speed
increased by 0.2 (1.3->1.5)
Leveller weapon AoE increased to 144 (128)
Intruder wake bug fixed, is no longer upright regardless of terrain
Banisher now aims a bit upward to fire, similar to Mercury
Construction vehicle build distance increased, construction kbot
build distance decreased
Merl, Diplomat HP increased 500 (~2500->3000), rocket AoE decreased
to 64/72 respectively (160), rocket damage increased to 1000/1300
respectively (800/900), range increased to 1215/1240 respectively
(1150)
Diplomat rocket reload time increased to 20 (16)
Tremor reload time decreased to 0.4 (0.5), accuracy reduced to 1400
(1000)
All artillery rebalanced for lower trajectory firing at long range,
higher trajectory firing at close range
Arm moho mine HP decreased to 2500 (3000), core moho mine HP
increased to 3500 (2500) and damage is now multiplied by 0.25
when closed (0.4)
Flash/Peewee EMG weapons seperated into two different classes
Peewee range increased to 180 (176)
Flash range increased to 190 (176)
Instigator damage per second reduced to 97 (107)
AK damage per second increased to 87 (79)
Commander laser damage versus L1 air transports increased to 180
(125)
Metal extractors in (A) fixed
Units removed: hyper radars, bertha ships, bertha tanks, orcone,
krogtaar, artillery hovers, aegis
Depthcharge launchers added to commander build menus
Laser and EMG weapon graphics improved
Core LLT made the same height as Arm LLT
Beamer turret height increased to halfway in-between Core HLLT's
two turrets
Jethro recoil on wrong barrel fixed
Marauder death and self-d explosions reduced
Removed a TON of unused graphics
Removed extra loading screen bloat
All vehicle speed, acceleration, braking, and turnrate values
increased by 10%
All corpse metal values normalized to 70% metal, 50% hitpoints,
all heap metal values normalized to 35% metal, 20% hitpoints;
all corpses and heaps put into one file (even more thanks to
TradeMark)
Arm amphibious construction vehicle, construction hovercraft
build menu bugs fixed in standard, (H), (A)
Amphibious construction vehicle build menus corrected in (F)
Annihilator energy cost increased 250% to 62563, damage
multiplier when armored (closed/off) increased to 0.25 (0.05)
Firestorm HP increased to 8500 (2200), damager per hit
increased to 20 (17), tolerance set to 10000 (0), sprayangle
increased to 12000 (8000)
Catapult size increased 33% (3x3->4x4)
Commander mass increased to 5000 (2500)
Fusion reactor and cloakable fusion reactor (not underwater)
energy cost increased 25%, metal cost increased 20%,
buildtime increased 15%
Advanced fusion reactor stats adjusted
Jammer tower cost vs. effectiveness made comparable to mobile
jammer units
Depth charge removed from anti-air hovercraft
Radar, advanced radar, and mobile radar stats rebalanced
Combat autorepair removed from all units except Commander, Maverick;
maverick description changed to reflect this
Advanced torpedo launcher range increased to 1200 (650)
Increased damage values versus amphibous units removed from all
applicable weapons
Hovercraft platform metal cost reduced 100 units
"Support Ship" revert to standard anti-air ship
Metal maker, moho metal maker, floating metal maker, underwater
moho metal maker costs increased
Hovercraft made less slope tolerant, costs adjusted, sizes adjusted
Amphibious tanks made more slope tolerant, costs adjusted
Ground decals replaced with ones from Unpossible
Flak tank range increased to that of stationary flak
wip: Shield Generators reverted to repulsor-type with a (useless)
"shield" indicating its effective radius as a visual guide
wip: Behemoth firing sequence fixed
Posted: 27 Aug 2006, 23:36
by KDR_11k
wip: Shield Generators reverted to repulsor-type with a (useless)
"shield" indicating its effective radius as a visual guide
Hm, I thought they removed the repulsors...
I could easily adapt the script to deal with fuel too. That'd require 73b1 to work correctly (set MAX_SPEED...) but that's probably going to be released by the time AWS is done. Ships wouldn't sink when their fuel is depleted and I'm not sure how subs in submersed mode can be done in Spring, I'm pretty sure you can't check if a unit is cloaked via script. But for land and air units it'll be mostly doable (can't make planes refuel from a troop transporter unless you make them an airbase). I think AW used only one ammo type per unit so I could remove the secondary ammo code.
Posted: 27 Aug 2006, 23:37
by FireCrack
Do remember to give depth charges back to cruisers....
Also, what ever hppened to that t3 factory for vehicles you had planned?
Posted: 28 Aug 2006, 01:07
by Pxtl
KlavoHunter wrote:Pxtl wrote:Machiosabre wrote:I have one suggestion regarding amphibians, the poison arrow sucks, it's so slow at everything it has a hard time fighting lvl1 kbots, I'd suggest making it sort of the same as a reaper, but more expensive to make up for it being amphibious.
The triton and crock seem to work pretty good though.
Idunno, I'd have fun with it. Core's already got an "amphibious assault tank" - in the Croc. If, as you say, the poisoin arrow really needs to be revamped, you could do it as something special. Like a superslow-superheavy tank, or a mobile amphibious artillery unit with antinaval damage (so you basically get a small mobile Guardian). Considering the slope-tolerance of amphibs, an amphib-arty unit would be freakishly useful even on non-water maps like AltoredDivide..
Yes, the Poison Arrow is ridiculously underused. Those who can afford them can pretty much also afford the even better Shiva (As I assume you're building these things from an Underwater Complex). It needs to become something special to get used.
For some reason, the idea of a "anti-fortification" unit sounds attractive. Which sounds really particularly good for a "small Guardian" with high-trajectory fire. Maybe replace that big gun on the Poison Arrow with a Guardian's cannon, and then mebbe add 2 smaller turrets on the sides with an LLT/Instigator laser, or a Flamethrower each for close-in self-defense.
Umm, changing the model basically means a new unit, which Caydr doesn't do. Any "new" Poison Arrow would still have just 1 gun. And there already are non-amphib "small guardian" units in the Luger and friends.
The thing that must be considered is whether the Poison Arrow must remain yet-another-assault-tank... when there is already so many other assault amphibs. Personally, I'd like to see it either as an artillery, or to be more interesting (and different from just an "amphib luger") I'd make it a "Amphibious Anti-Naval Cannon" - that is, a slow unit armed with a weapon similar to the low-trajectory fire of a Guardian, with a Luger's range, and Naval damage. It would be useful on land-maps as a slow, heavy, longer-ranged Morty, and on naval maps as a mobile Guardian, but without the high-trajectory Bombardment mode.
That, and I think the L1 SAM kbots should be made into amphibious units. Not like they're useful in any other way.
Posted: 28 Aug 2006, 01:24
by Dragon45
Egarwaen wrote:After seeing NOiZE use a swarm of them in a game today, I definitely agree with the L1 fighter nerf. I was totally wrong there, they'd still be viable at that price.
I strongly disagree. They die like paper to even token AA. One defender aloen can shred one up every time it reloads; figure that nad you have about 10 fighters dead in less than a minute. Figure two Defenders, three Defenders - fighter swarms die easily to anyone with a clue. They're fine as is.
Posted: 28 Aug 2006, 02:05
by Drexion
Tech1 fighter does not need a nerf. Defenders RAPE them. Build some anti-air. Crashers, samsons (which should be better against air, IMO), defenders.
Tech2 fighters need to be buffed.
Caydr, no offense but why on earth the fusion reactor change? I already rarely build them, now I never shall =(. Just not worth it for 750 E.
-Drexion
Posted: 28 Aug 2006, 02:50
by Caydr
The tech 1 fighter nerf has already been reverted, it was to correct something else that has also been reverted. I forgot to remove it from the changelog.
Why do you say T2 fighters need a buff? They're much superior to T1 fighters in every regard but (IIRC) aren't much more expensive.
~~~
Huh. I see the problem now, they only had one missile. They were supposed to have two. I wonder how long it's been like that...
Eliminate missile weapon damage reduction to gunships, you think? It's generally a matter of 10-20% less damage.
Posted: 28 Aug 2006, 03:09
by Drexion
gunships are already only useful until they get anti-air (mercury rocks, flaks, etc)... Given the "slow them down" change you already implemented...
Gunship brake rate reduced 25%, acceleration reduced 20%, speed
reduced 15%, rotation reduced 10%
I'm not sure any further nerfing is warranted...shrug... But if it still needs further nerfing, getting rid of that missile-damage-reduction sounds like a good idea...would make defenders better against brawlers... Of course, that will also make jethros even better against gunships
. I hate the idea of level 1 anti-air totally destroying level 2 air...
Posted: 28 Aug 2006, 03:59
by Pxtl
Drexion wrote:... Of course, that will also make jethros even better against gunships
. I hate the idea of level 1 anti-air totally destroying level 2 air...
BWAHAHAHAHAH. Did you not read the earlier post where it was found that Jethros were, metal-to-metal, about equal to gunships? Considering the massive mobility and usefulness advantage that gunships have over jethros, I think that being an even fight could not be described as even close to "totally destroying".
Personally, I never liked the gunship-missile-resistence. Ditch it and buff their armour correspondingly.
Posted: 28 Aug 2006, 04:18
by Egarwaen
Pxtl wrote:Personally, I never liked the gunship-missile-resistence. Ditch it and buff their armour correspondingly.
You are aware that, unless flak gets buffed, this has the net effect of nerfing flak hard?
Posted: 28 Aug 2006, 04:37
by Forboding Angel
Instigator uses this class
[CLASS3]
{
Name=TANKSH2;
FootprintX=2;
FootprintZ=2;
MaxWaterDepth=20;
MaxSlope=24;
CrushStrength=10;
}
The Golliath uses this class
Name=MECH;
FootprintX=4;
FootprintZ=4;
MaxWaterDepth=20;
MaxSlope=25;
CrushStrength=250;
Now, will someone tell me why the light tanks have worse slope tolerance than the heavy tanks??? Caydr, try these numbers:
For tanksh2 use maxslope 26
For mech use maxslope 25
It may not seem like a big differance, but it does have an impact.
Posted: 28 Aug 2006, 04:56
by Dragon45
Commander metal value reduced (15000->2500)
May I ask the reasoning behind this/what noob whined for it?