Spring RTS Engine

JAZCASH wrote:

pintle wrote: How exactly does a slower unit, with less range, own the other?

Erm, Micro? Also, such small stat differences doesn't make one unit better than another. There are more variables to take into account other than range and speed.

What micro would that be? The gators kite the pw, the pw do not get a shot off...

pintle wrote:

JAZCASH wrote:

pintle wrote: How exactly does a slower unit, with less range, own the other?

Erm, Micro? Also, such small stat differences doesn't make one unit better than another. There are more variables to take into account other than range and speed.

What micro would that be? The gators kite the pw, the pw do not get a shot off...

I think you should at least play BA once or twice before you make any comment about it at all.

NO NO NO, USE WARRIORS, WARRIOR IS THE BEST KBOT!!! (Seriously though, Warriors need to be removed, useless, it would become to unbalanced if buffed, I feel bad for noobs who get owned by 5 rocket kbots because they spammed warriors).

JAZCASH wrote:

1v0ry_k1ng wrote: 1) Flash builds at 74% faster than Peewee

There's a little thing called buildtime. The lower the buildtime, the faster the unit builds. Flash has 1963 build time and Peewee has 1420 buildtime.

1v0ry_k1ng wrote: 1) Flash builds at 74% faster than Peewee

In a situation where you have the resources, you can produce a hell of alot more metals worth of flash than you can peewee with the same buildpower.

YO DAWG, I HEARD U CANT READ

if you could, right, you wouldnt have posted this lolshit.
Look, heres the metal drains of com assisted labs again.

Peewee
-12.7m -252.7e

Flash
-22.2 -186.2e

if building flash is draining 74% metal, it means 74% more metals worth of flash is produced at the speed of peewee metal. it means if you had the labs working side by side, with infinite resources, you would end up with 74% more metals worth of flash outside the flash factory.

If you read his post he clearly, he thinks that Flash are faster to build than Peewees, which is most definately, wrong.

he thinks you are a dipshit >_>

the relavent factor here is METAL to BUILDTIME RATIO which atm, is 74% in the favour of the flash. as a sterile value, buildtime=; is meaningless for discerning buildspeed.
the point here, if you dont follow, is that you need alot more- 74% more- of the build power resource to match flash production with peewees - and yes, buildpower is is a resource.

ok - so, no room here for someone going baaawww peeweeess rr gr88 i lovve them changge nothing!111- they are effective units, but they are also very expensive in buildtime compared to flash tanks, and there is no good reason for this to be the case.

If you read his post he clearly, he thinks that Flash are faster to build than Peewees, which is most definately, wrong.

the second reason this is wrong is the energy costs. early game lab com assisting is limited in speed primarily by your energy, since you have starting metal. because peewees cost 236% of the energy to build- and its alot of energy in relation to their buildtime- you just *cant* churn them out early like flashes, they are too expensive.

if peewees had the same com-assisted buildspeed to metal ratio as flash:
-186.2e for the flash
-439.7e for the peewee

there is no fucking way you can pack that much energy early game, yet to build peewees at the same speed (ie, produce the same metals worth of them) that comassisted flash tanks are built- at, you need 439.7e.

the only situation where peewee production can come close to approaching flash production is when both are metal stalling to the point that they have the same buildtime, and the kbot player has the energy production not to stall- and that is no small amount.

between the high e-cost and bt, its just not very valid unit in a high end game beyond squeezing a few out at the start and between every batch of rockos.

to put what im saying into perspective:
The peewee itself is fine, its balance vs vehicles etc is fine and i have no comment on this.
the cost+bt of the peewee is not fine, it is absurdly high without any justifications. if the e-cost and bt were in line with all the other t1 units, would the peewee become OP? I think no.

im done.
in b4 alternative versions of "If you read his post he clearly, he thinks that Flash are faster to build than Peewees, which is most definately, wrong" and jaz failreply

I don't care about your maths.

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:Flash builds at 74% faster than Peewee

Jazcash a word of advice I think you should stop posting before you start seriously embarrassing yourself which was about six posts ago.

Llamadeus wrote:Jazcash a word of advice I think you should stop posting before you start seriously embarrassing yourself which was about six posts ago.

"Cost per second at same buildpower" is a very narrow way of looking at it. If the peewee or flash had its build time halved it would be a clear buff, but you would claim it's "double in cost".


What matters, of course, is total cost.

Build power is a resource and build time a part of the total cost.

Also you seem to have misunderstood that he's saying that the costs per second of peewees are too low, not too high. That, if the metal costs of the peewee and flash are roughly representative of the value of the unit then peewees require a greater investment in build power proportional* to its relative build time cost.

Which is pretty much correct.

*Though the cost of build power isn't completely linear in practice. The first 100 (the lab) sets you back 600 metal, but the next 90 (the first con) only costs about 100, and diminishing returns sets in thereafter.

Llamadeus wrote:Build power is a resource and build time a part of the total cost.

Also you seem to have misunderstood that he's saying that the costs per second of peewees are too low, not too high. That, if the metal costs of the peewee and flash are roughly representative of the value of the unit then peewees require a greater investment in build power proportional* to its relative build time cost.

Which is pretty much correct.

*Though the cost of build power isn't completely linear in practice. The first 100 (the lab) sets you back 600 metal, but the next 90 (the first con) only costs about 100, and diminishing returns sets in thereafter.

Don't forget con kbots (especially the kind that sit and guard the lab) are considerably more efficient than con vehicles. The lab is cheaper too.


Regardless, you're quite right that it's incorrect to compare "an equivalent amount of peewees and flash in metal" because metal is a vastly different proportion of their costs (as is build time). Building peewee, in a sense, is what you do instead of making metal makers - that makes them great for high wind and easy geo maps where energy is relatively cheap and metal/build time is relatively scarce.

By the way, if you just use 1 m = 60 e and spawn roughly equivalent amounts in cost of flash and peewees and then pit them against eachother, it's inconclusive who wins. It's not quite like pelicans vs cruisers where the pelicans dominate.

Regardless, you're quite right that it's incorrect to compare "an equivalent amount of peewees and flash in metal" because metal is a vastly different proportion of their costs (as is build time). Building peewee, in a sense, is what you do instead of making metal makers - that makes them great for high wind and easy geo maps where energy is relatively cheap and metal/build time is relatively scarce.

he never said this. I never said this. peewees are not overpowered for their metal cost. they are not some kind of energy made, metal efficent unit. they are a unit of normal m-cost with a very high e-cost two peewees are about as useful as a flash. a low metal map might mean equal production rates- if the kbot player has enough energy- but by no means is that especially an advantage- its a diffrent unit with diffrent strengths and weaknessses.

Build power is a resource and build time a part of the total cost.

Also you seem to have misunderstood that he's saying that the costs per second of peewees are too low, not too high. That, if the metal costs of the peewee and flash are roughly representative of the value of the unit then peewees require a greater investment in build power proportional* to its relative build time cost.

Which is pretty much correct.

Though the cost of build power isn't completely linear in practice. The first 100 (the lab) sets you back 600 metal, but the next 90 (the first con) only costs about 100, and diminishing returns sets in thereafter.

yeah

on the subject of the diminishing returns: while the lab is cheaper, there is the hidden cost in that in needing alot more energy structures than a vehicle plant, so im pretty sure it works out around the same.
the kbot con is cheaper, which makes buildtime a little cheaper, but the disadvantages of the kbot con - low speed, hp - slow expansion - dont make up for this. I dont see the cheaper con as an advantage.
also, needing that extra buildtime in order to just match flash production speed is another hidden cost.
in b4 noobpost

What about giving the rezbot the ability to build metal extractors? This would eliminate the main reason I never go bots - slow expansion.

Counter arguments:
-hard to implement to make it able to assist mexproduction only
-overpowered, rezbot is too fast

Or what about a mobile metal extractor bot, which produces metal when positioned over a metalspot, and moves as fast as a T1 con vehicle?

speed of T1 con units:
T1 veh: 1.925
T1 bot: 1.2
rezbot: 2.6

Jaz wins the thread.

Simply because as I was reading it, I came across that image macro and had to stop reading because I couldn't stop laughing.

ivory:

when you make 15 flashes, you could have had 20 peewee's (only considering buildtime). which mean in the same time you created 25 % more firepower (in DPS that is).

The both have different roles.....

NOiZE wrote:ivory:

when you make 15 flashes, you could have had 20 peewee's (only considering buildtime). which mean in the same time you created 25 % more firepower (in DPS that is).

The both have different roles.....

I tried with infinate res, veh and kb labs up at same time and started building at same time. By the time there were 5 flash there was about 9 peewees I think which is near doubling the time.

So in the time it takes to make 15 flash, you could probably have around 25 peewees...

Peewee
bt=1420;
Flash
bt=1963;

for every flash, you should get 1.38 peewees (not accounting for the times to leave the lab)

so 10 flash, 14 pw

1090m of flash
630m of peewee

when you make 15 flashes, you could have had 20 peewee's (only considering buildtime). which mean in the same time you created 25 % more firepower (in DPS that is).

They both have different roles.....

20 peewees will get completely stomped by 15 flashes, and are inferior in every situation not involving a vertical slope. 20 peewees is considerably less metals worth of units than 15 flash.

So in the time it takes to make 15 flash, you could probably have around 25 peewees...

21 peewees, and yeah thats 945 metal of peewees against 1635 metal of flash

anyway, yeah just wanted to point this out so all the faggots whining 'pw is fine do nothing' can choke on my dick

I know I know ba balance is sacred and perfect, move on

Peewees aren't designed for large groups which is why they fail when they get hit by guardian shock or riot tank.

However, 2 Peewees would beat 1 Gator. Also bot labs are cheaper than Veh anyway...

Peewees should mainly be used for the odd mex raid, sneaky flank, or flash/gator killed up to about 6 minutes or so. That's the point they usually start to fail.

But they will always beat almost any T1 unit if they have the height advantage.

pw is fine do nothing

If spamming almost only PW early game was a good strat it would be quite gay imo. (about as much as current jeffy)

the suggestions i read are pretty diverse
and reasonable to some extent

they're generally like, is this tactic valid? or should this unit be so strong?
maybe the question is, what kind of game play should this mod encourage?

because if we wanted BA to encourage spamming 1 unit, we could prolly agree more about core vs arm balance, and comparing peewees to flash would make sense

if we wanted each unit to have certain roles, of course we wouldn't compare peewees to flash! or kbots to vehicles for that matter

if we wanted to encourage forming a very mixed army.. you get the idea.
from the looks of it, people have very different views about what game play BA should encourage