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Posted: 21 Aug 2006, 14:43
by Hellspawn
jackalope wrote:
Caydr wrote:Ho ho, that was a bad one. :lol:

But autoheal is definitely going to get turned off. Stuff that's damaged to 2% health should remain as such. It's really frustrating to have a punisher or something get down to 5 HP, then you return a minute later to finish the job and find that it's at 1500 HP without even being repaired.
Yes. Autoheal just make a porcer's job that much more hand's free. If it's off repeated waves against a defensive line might be more effective, or at least force the other player to divert cons to repairing, in which case you could attack them to prevent repairs.
I really don't see why turning off autoheal will make porcing harder (not like winning with porcing is nearly impossible at the moment anway).

I'll give you example. You have 2 armies on different side. One army is in base (porcing player) and other one is atacking it. Both armies get damaged. Autoheal is off. Who do you think will reheal his army. The one atacking or the porcer which has units in his base where there aswell many cons. Let's be honest. Noone will bring cons with him for atack porpuse.

Thus autoheal does not help porcer, trust me. I am one of more agressive players. I am sure many others skilled players would agree with me. Autoheal is so lijt, it brings you reason to keep or units alive and retreat them.

About airdrops, ugh thats a huge change. I'll need to think about it. But air seems to me very strong already so far, not mentioning lvl 2 air, which pwns everything.

Posted: 21 Aug 2006, 14:57
by jackalope
L2 Air is only strong because people don't defend against it.

Posted: 21 Aug 2006, 15:00
by Ishach
NOiZE wrote:Krogoth has a groupai for KAI which generates a text file with values of units it's quite usefull

The overall value Score is based by type, and is best compared with two units of similar uses (eg not anti-air ship vs flame kbot)
Their ranges, speeds, damage and costs should be fairly similar for best results and if the units have special damage like anti-air or two weapons because of trajectory or on-off status then this value is affected drastically
The DPS shown is an average of the DPS against all targets and therefore might not be completely accurate for anti-air units, but it is consistent.


it can show things like this:

Storm: Estimated Overall value: 568.245 Rocko: Estimated Overall value: 505.093

Thud: Estimated Overall value: 307.858 Hammer: Estimated Overall value: 346.2

Instigator: Estimated Overall value: 517.49 Flash: Estimated Overall value: 356.653

the txt file can be found here:

http://members.home.nl/sangers/ModStatsAA211.txt
Nice!

Any word if there will be a database version for easier comparisons?

Posted: 21 Aug 2006, 16:11
by ZellSF
Min3mat wrote:


No autoheal in OTA was fine, as the balance in OTA is vastly different from what AA has.
QFFT
Caydr really NOONE not even noobs wants that change i think its one of the more awesome things about spring!

Also...wtf did you do to my scout planes O.O 20 sec reload? maybe increasing the reload time by say 2-3 secs but that...that takes the piss
Don't particularly like the airtransport changes either, if i wanted combat drops i'd play EE >.>
Are you actually going to make any changes other than these insane, undiscussed, spur of the moment changes. And are you going to listen to reason???
Uh, just play AA 2.11 or ask for permission to continue the mod yourself another direction?

Or keep calling Caydr insane until he thinks "oh, that guy calling me insane sure is a nice guy, I better start working on the changes he wants".

Posted: 21 Aug 2006, 16:33
by Egarwaen
Caydr wrote:Peepers/Finks now have a 20-second reload and only .5 efficiency, meaning that only half of the flares will be effective. This means you won't be able to indefinitely screen against mercuries with a couple of scout planes.
YOU COULDN'T. This change is pointless and stupid. Now Peepers will be totally useless at their assigned role once the enemy gets a pair of missile towers up, but will not be any worse at screening against Mercuries.

Do you even understand how scout planes were used to screen against AA? Since you apparently don't, I'll explain it to you. You build a wing of 10 or 15 and send them in just ahead of your bombers. Every Mercury in your enemy's base wastes its first missile on them. Your bombers then hit their target and destroy it, the Mercuries reload, and your bombers probably die.

This is good. It introduces an interesting use for a basic unit, and means that Mercuries/Screamers aren't the be-all end-all of anti-air. You need other solutions as well, like fighter patrols or anti-swarm turrets, to catch the scout planes before all your Mercuries waste their shot and to help take down the bombers.

Your change does nothing to prevent this behaviour. So flares are now 50% effective. Whoop-de-doo. Now I just use 20 Peepers instead of 10. Even if they had no flares at all, they'd still be useful for this, simply because they're a cheap aircraft that can force the enemy's Mercuries to waste a shot.

What your change does do is make Peepers useless at their supposed job - recon. They used to have a reasonable chance of getting past light AA defenses to spot what was behind them. Now they won't be able to.

Might as well change the description from "Scout plane" to "Long-range missile tower decoy", because that's all they're good for after this nerf.
Third, air plants have been made more affordable by reducing their metal cost by 100. Fighters have had a corresponding increase of 10% to all their costs so that spamming fighters won't be too much easier. This doesn't amount to much, but if you build 15 fighters you'll have paid the difference.
Why bother? Seriously, why bother? Air plants are already the cheapest L1 factory (by a large margin, IIRC) and are easily affordable with pocket change at any time after about 10 minutes into the game. I can see no possible balance improvement from this change, and a significant problem.
Fighters or just a good number of anti-air guns (especially flak) will keep them away very effectively.
And here we see the significant problems.

1) You've just made the counter to your new super-air-transports significantly more expensive.

2) The other counter to your new super-air-transports is level 2 and not exactly cheap. So now you don't just need flak for gunship defense, you need it almost as soon a you hit L2 for airdrop defense. Wonderful. That's going to make big games a total pain in the ass.
This is just one of many changes for the better you'll see in the next version of AA.
For the better? Really? Have you playtested these? If so, who'd you play against? They don't even seem particularly well thought-out, never mind a potential improvement.
Hellspawn wrote:I'll give you example. You have 2 armies on different side. One army is in base (porcing player) and other one is atacking it. Both armies get damaged. Autoheal is off. Who do you think will reheal his army. The one atacking or the porcer which has units in his base where there aswell many cons. Let's be honest. Noone will bring cons with him for atack porpuse.
QFT. Especially since cons are the first thing to die when the plasma cannons open fire.

And hey, guess what? With the airdrops, you can now porc, mass an army, airlift it right past your enemy's army, and wipe out his base! Awesome!

Yeah, big games are going to be shit if these changes go through. 1v1s probably won't be affected, but anything bigger than a 2v2 is going to be a total porcfest. But that's what you get when you listen to people who don't play the damn mod.

Posted: 21 Aug 2006, 16:53
by NOiZE
ARMHAM Hammer Light Plasma Kbot
Type: 3
--
Speed: 46.2
Range: 380
Hitpoints: 810
Cost: 121 Metal 1231 Energy
---WEAPONS---
ARM_HAM DPS: 42.5571 AOE: 18 ReloadTime 1.75

DPS: 42.5571
DPS Per Cost: 7.00991
Hitpoints Per Cost: 13.3421
Estimated Overall value: 346.2


CORTHUD Thud Light Plasma Kbot
Type: 3
--
Speed: 45
Range: 380
Hitpoints: 870
Cost: 147 Metal 1161 Energy
---WEAPONS---
ARM_HAM DPS: 42.5571 AOE: 18 ReloadTime 1.75

DPS: 42.5571
DPS Per Cost: 6.04419
Hitpoints Per Cost: 12.3562
Estimated Overall value: 307.858

Acording this stats the Hammer needs a slight nerf or the thud a slight buff. I vote for a small buff of the thud like 100 extra HP. So arm keeps his "speedy" Hammer, and Core gets a slightly slower, but more "armoured" Thud.

Posted: 21 Aug 2006, 16:58
by Day
whiner :wink:

Posted: 21 Aug 2006, 17:15
by NOiZE
owh and you might wanna know this:

From the SVN log:

1918 / betalord TASClient: fix for sidecount=0 bug (which caused crashes with mods like AA 2.11 A and H)

Posted: 21 Aug 2006, 17:17
by Egarwaen
Note that the Storm's better than the Rocko, but the Hammer's better than the Thud. At any rate, those things look approximately balanced.

What I find interesting is the Instigator/Flash issue. I guess there really is a problem there! But what? Maybe the Flash needs to be a bit faster?

Posted: 21 Aug 2006, 17:22
by NOiZE
CORGATOR Instigator Light Tank
Type: 3
--
Speed: 89.7
Range: 231
Hitpoints: 770
Cost: 118 Metal 1042 Energy
---WEAPONS---
GATOR_LASERx DPS: 86.0357 AOE: 4 ReloadTime 0.7

DPS: 86.0357
DPS Per Cost: 14.9316
Hitpoints Per Cost: 13.3634
Estimated Overall value: 517.49

ARMFLASH Flash Fast Assault Tank
Type: 3
--
Speed: 100.2
Range: 176
Hitpoints: 630
Cost: 114 Metal 914 Energy
---WEAPONS---
EMG DPS: 89.0323 AOE: 4 ReloadTime 0.31

DPS: 89.0323
DPS Per Cost: 16.2646
Hitpoints Per Cost: 11.509
Estimated Overall value: 356.653

Something needs to be done there, I would vote for cost reduction for the Flash.

PS

The Strom is slightly better then the Rocko, well the rocko is faster.

CORSTORM Storm Rocket Kbot
Type: 3
--
Speed: 45
Range: 475
Hitpoints: 670
Cost: 85 Metal 879 Energy
---WEAPONS---
KBOT_ROCKET DPS: 38.6842 AOE: 24 ReloadTime 3.8

DPS: 38.6842
DPS Per Cost: 9.04048
Hitpoints Per Cost: 15.6579
Estimated Overall value: 568.245

ARMROCK Rocko Rocket Kbot
Type: 3
--
Speed: 46.2
Range: 475
Hitpoints: 650
Cost: 97 Metal 944 Energy
---WEAPONS---
KBOT_ROCKET DPS: 38.6842 AOE: 24 ReloadTime 3.8

DPS: 38.6842
DPS Per Cost: 8.01912
Hitpoints Per Cost: 13.4743
Estimated Overall value: 505.093

perhaps decrease rocko cost a tiny bit?

Posted: 21 Aug 2006, 17:25
by Wolf-In-Exile
Egarwaen, I think its wise to give Caydr the benefit of the doubt instead of talking like he's some n00b.... its his mod after all. :wink:

I disagree about the airlift/porc thing, if anything it'll make porcing harder since the transports can get units into a porc-er's base fast once you take out his AA defences and ruin that Vulcan or Krogoth he's trying to make.

Of course, porcers can do the same, but a porcer would not have taken out your L2 AA, which shred transports like so much paper.

And by the time he can organise a sizeable drop force somehow while building defences and those munchy Vulcans, you'd be already knocking at his doorstep.

Posted: 21 Aug 2006, 17:31
by Drone_Fragger
Buff the flash, Leave the kbots alone. They are balenced as is.

Posted: 21 Aug 2006, 17:32
by NOiZE
Drone_Fragger wrote:... Leave the kbots alone. They are balenced as is.
How can you say that? i just proved that they are not?

Posted: 21 Aug 2006, 17:35
by knorke
I agree with what Egarwaen said about the scoutplanes :?

Acording this stats the Hammer needs a slight nerf or the thud a slight buff.
I mostly play Core and never noticed a big unbalance, maybe other core level 1 are better than their arm relatives? Level 1 balance seems very good to me.

Autoheal is essential for small groups of level 1 units that roam around maps like Small Divide and such. Without autoheal they would die even faster.
I woudldnt mind having to repair my base.
But atm its impossible to repair units are moving around destroying outposts, those need autorepair imo.

Posted: 21 Aug 2006, 17:42
by Caydr
50 for HP for thud? Meh, I guess that's fine...

Egaragwen (sorry for the name), you're usually more level-headed than this. Keep your cool. Things will be good. Just relax. Nothing's set in stone yet, I've already said I'll be testing this version for more than a week before even posting it. If stuff is bad, I'll fix it. Relax.

Posted: 21 Aug 2006, 17:48
by Cabbage
lvl 1 kbots dont need to be touched atall.

Posted: 21 Aug 2006, 17:57
by Egarwaen
Wolf-In-Exile wrote:And by the time he can organise a sizeable drop force somehow while building defences and those munchy Vulcans, you'd be already knocking at his doorstep.
Assume that the porcer's not a moron, please. If he skips the Vulcan and goes for an airdrop force, I'm betting he could have a mob in your main base well before you can get L2 AA. Especially since your army's going to be at a disadvantage during a siege without auto-regen.

And Caydr, I'm not being "level-headed" because you seem to have ignored everything experienced players said about Peeper/Eagle balance the past few pages.

The Peeper is fine as-is. Completely fine. There's no issue at all with it. The Eagle/Vulture need their flare time reduced, as they are the ones that can currently be used to keep an entire base's AA busy.

Agreed with Cabbage about L1 KBots. The difference in efficiency is so minor that it gets eaten up in the "noise" of actual play. The Instigator/Flash thing is possibly more serious. And what're the numbers like for the Peewee and AK?

Posted: 21 Aug 2006, 18:11
by Pxtl
Egarwaen wrote:
Wolf-In-Exile wrote:And by the time he can organise a sizeable drop force somehow while building defences and those munchy Vulcans, you'd be already knocking at his doorstep.
Assume that the porcer's not a moron, please. If he skips the Vulcan and goes for an airdrop force, I'm betting he could have a mob in your main base well before you can get L2 AA. Especially since your army's going to be at a disadvantage during a siege without auto-regen.

And Caydr, I'm not being "level-headed" because you seem to have ignored everything experienced players said about Peeper/Eagle balance the past few pages.

The Peeper is fine as-is. Completely fine. There's no issue at all with it. The Eagle/Vulture need their flare time reduced, as they are the ones that can currently be used to keep an entire base's AA busy.

Agreed with Cabbage about L1 KBots. The difference in efficiency is so minor that it gets eaten up in the "noise" of actual play. The Instigator/Flash thing is possibly more serious. And what're the numbers like for the Peewee and AK?
Dunno about the numbers, but I've found that micro'd AKs make mincemeat out of peewees, and unmicro'd peewees make mincemeat out of AKs.... but that it doesn't matter too much, as everybody switches to Rockos 20 seconds into the game. Basic fact is that Arm players need an LLT because his peewees aren't gonna fight off the AKs with their superior range and speed. And yes, flashes are useless. Instigators are great for doing peeper-rush-style "run through a weak spot in the defensive line", but flashes are basically useless. The only units I ever see get into firing range of a Flash are peewees and AKs, and the flash turret often moves so slowly that it only gets off a handful of shots at the target. But this is my own, amateurish, incompetent experience.

Posted: 21 Aug 2006, 18:23
by NOiZE
Egarwaen wrote:Agreed with Cabbage about L1 KBots. The difference in efficiency is so minor that it gets eaten up in the "noise" of actual play. The Instigator/Flash thing is possibly more serious. And what're the numbers like for the Peewee and AK?
Well considering the Huge Hammer vs Thud wars even a slight unbalance will be muliplied like 100 times, which makes it a bigger unbalance, and it's easy to fix, so i see no harm?

and about the stats you can look them up yourself right here:

http://members.home.nl/sangers/ModStatsAA211.txt

Posted: 21 Aug 2006, 18:27
by Machiosabre
I wouldn't mind the thud getting more hp but I'd rather have the storm be a bit more expensive than the rocko cheaper, last thing aa needs is more rockos.