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Wow, I didn't know there were so many CRAZY liberals out there.

I myself dislike bush and his administration, but I do not believe there is a plan to "1984-ize" the US, or any other nation for that matter.

Governments will always try to make the people more subservient to their needs, but as long as the people have minds, I think a revolution is in order.

Also, you seem to reference "Prison Planet" a lot. They just look like an anti-bush internet tabloid to me.

This is for anyone who wants to understand why the buildings collapsed.
http://www.civil.usyd.edu.au/wtc.shtml

Well that was a well written pice on how the buildings collapsed. Makes sence to me.

Even though its really disturbing to think/read about.

I agree, that article answers all of my questions.

The only question it dosnt answer is what the hell is up with your avatar! I don't see candles, and I dont see men, so its got me stumped.

its a short guy with candles on his hat and on his staff.

i dont know how to imbed pictures, otherwise i'd show a bigger one.

Candleman wrote:Wow, I didn't know there were so many CRAZY liberals out there.

I myself dislike bush and his administration, but I do not believe there is a plan to "1984-ize" the US, or any other nation for that matter.

Governments will always try to make the people more subservient to their needs, but as long as the people have minds, I think a revolution is in order.

Also, you seem to reference "Prison Planet" a lot. They just look like an anti-bush internet tabloid to me.

I refer to that site because they don't just smash Bush, they use real news sources for their information. News that you would never see on CNN or the like.

I don't get this 1984 thing, whats that about?

And I'm not a "liberal". The whole Liberal vs Conservative thing is a scam cooked up to keep the people fighting with eachother rather than looking at what's really going on. Case and point Bill Clintons voting records are nearly identical to Bush's, despite Clinton being a Democrat and Bush being a Republican. My point is, the people in control weild Republicans and Democrats like puppets on a string, everything the general populace see's on the evening news is staged. Elections are no exception.
"Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything." --Russian Dictator Joseph Stalin

With electronic voting those who count the votes are those who lobby for legislation to get electronic voteing machines mandated in every state.

1984 is a book by George Orwell (?) about a society run by the Government behind the facade of a man called Big Brother. In this society, the people are completely at the whims of the government as they rewrite history in their favor, switch sides and allies in an ever-present war, and generally supervise the proletariat. There are thought-police, breaking into your home and putting a bullet in your brain if they suspect you of thinking badly about Big Brother, and they have even created a new language, "newspeak," to further simplify the people.

If you say anything like "thats exactly what I mean" then I will... I dunno.... cry or something.

I'm going to bed now, so if you wanna argue some more, do it in the morning.

Me, I'm going to bed.

Candleman wrote:1984 is a book by George Orwell (?) about a society run by the Government behind the facade of a man called Big Brother. In this society, the people are completely at the whims of the government as they rewrite history in their favor, switch sides and allies in an ever-present war, and generally supervise the proletariat. There are thought-police, breaking into your home and putting a bullet in your brain if they suspect you of thinking badly about Big Brother, and they have even created a new language, "newspeak," to further simplify the people.

If you say anything like "thats exactly what I mean" then I will... I dunno.... cry or something.

Unfortunatly for all the info I've seen, and it's a lot, I would believe we are headed in that direction. If you don't think so then...well...public education did it's job.

The great thing about this is you don't have to take my word for it. Go out and research it yourself, there is more than enough info out there. Oh and 9/11 isn't the only 'proof' of this, our government, just like all governments, has a LONG history of using fake terror attacks (or allowing attacks to happen) to move the populace to war or extend governement control. The cold hard fact is; governments stand to gain from terror. And if you think they need more incentive to fake terror attacks than just money and power then well...you don't know the true extremes of human greed.

OverDamage, you seem like a passionate person, and as much as I want to curse you, I know I shouldn't. Why don't we let sleeping dogs lie and just
agree to disagree. I know you'll never convince me and I'm pretty sure you won't change because of me, so lets just leave it at that.

That goes for the rest of you, too.

OverDamage wrote: Are we at war with EastAsia, EurAsia: how about Iraq, Afganistan, soon Iran, who knows whats next (the prez does!).

World map and a dart...

Candleman wrote:OverDamage, you seem like a passionate person, and as much as I want to curse you, I know I shouldn't. Why don't we let sleeping dogs lie and just
agree to disagree. I know you'll never convince me and I'm pretty sure you won't change because of me, so lets just leave it at that.

That goes for the rest of you, too.

Sounds good, I don't need to push the issue. The future will decide who is right, be it for better..or worse.

exactly. only the truth can stand the test of time.

Not if george bush smashes all the truth out of this world

We just need to survive...3 more years, and all will be well.

Untill we elect Arnold Swaggenager...

What happens of dick chenay gets elected after this?

That article you showed does seem credible, but it doesn't answer all the questions. How did an explosion on the 70th (or whatever, doesn't really matter) floor manage to travel down a vacuum-sealed elevator shaft in order to damage the lobbies on the first floors? Keyword is vacuum-sealed. Fire and vacuum don't get along, regardless of what cheese sci-fi has to say on the issue.

Why were there explosions *preceding* the collapse of the buildings by several stories, in sync with the building's collapse? And these aren't on floors with any fires, btw.

How did "terrorists" get wind of an air force training operation happening on september 11th, designed to prepare for kamikaze passenger planes? This made it an ideal time to attack since there were only a tiny fraction of the regular air defense available for interception. Not to mention the fact that a few off-course planes would be assumed to be part of the excersice. Now, either they managed to find out about this high-level classified operation through... uh.... I dunno, sophisticated cleverness or something... or they were told it was going to happen... or there were no terrorists in the first place.

The article raises the question, when and how did "terrorists" get bombs into the buildings? You can't just take bombs into high-rises you know. So that idea is crazy - except that a matter of days before the attack (if I'm remembering this correctly from the "loose change" vid) the bomb-sniffing dogs weren't present and basically there was no security in place for some reason. Watch the video, he's more specific.

That's really the big inconsistency I see. From video evidence, it's not debatable whether or not there were explosions preceding the line of collapse by at least 10 stories or so, throughout the collapse. So it seems to my uneducated and uninformed brain that this implies bombs in the building. Ok, so it there were bombs in the building, why hijack a bunch of planes and crash them as well? Just for good measure? Come on, real-life terrorists aren't exactly the sort of people who go around wasting what pitiful bit of weapons and personnel they've got in place just for theatrics. The planes were completely ineffectual as a weapon to bring down the buildings - almost all of the fuel explodes on the outside of the building. The firemen who reached the impact points (before collapse) believed that the situation was salvageable. Remember, they were on the very floors that were directly impacted. This doesn't sound like a towering inferno to me. Again I am not well informed and firemen are arguably the only truly brave people left in the western world, and they knew people were counting on them. But you don't just casually mosey about on a floor that is engulfed in the midst of a firestorm and say basically that a couple more hoses would be nice but there's no need to panic.

How about the people who said the building could not possibly collapse as described by the terrorism theory and were quickly fired? Or who said "I'm a structural engineer, and that building could not have fallen down under its own weight in a million years as a result of a plane impact," and then a week later, "uhhh... *sweats*... YEAH. Plane. HIt the building, it blew up. That's what happened. (please don't kill me)".

Fact: the temperature in the building could not possibly have melted steel, even at the blast point. I'm not an expert in metallurgy so I won't debate whether it would have weakened it, or whether this weakness would be sufficient to bring the building down. But, Fact 2: people in the subbasement of the WTC heard an explosion *below* them. Then another *above* them (the latter is the plane I guess? dunno. irrelivant for this argument). A guy in the subbasement saw another guy with the skin hanging off his arms as if melted, like how a bomb might do... A guy can lie though, right? And he's just one guy, so let's not believe him. Oh... but there's a problem. Weeks (months? again my memory is fuzzy) after the collapse during cleanup, molten metal was found in the subbasement. It remained molten *that long*. Since nobody will argue the fact that the steel in the building where the planes hit could have been molten (melted) at the temperatures present... where did this superheated liquid metal come from? It's not like some guy spilled his coffee down there, we're talking thousands of degrees, like lava.

What happened to the considerable sum of gold that was housed (by the various companies that were headquartered at the WTC site) in the basement area? It was never recovered. We're talking about billions of dollars worth of gold. That kind of thing doesn't just get misplaced, mmkay?

Anyway watch the video. And don't call me a lefty or a righty or an anarchist or a communist, because I don't care about politics, I'm just a neutral observer.