Community...

[mother]

As for mapping posts, well..you have to admit, there ARE a lot of not-so-good maps, and they far outnumber the good ones.

I think this is the kinda sophistic logic that is causing this problem.



Anyhow... Anyone that has been around a while has to know where *I* stand on this issue.


I also think we have a problem called 'adverse selection' on the forii -the people who cannot play the game spend more time here then people who do. Outside of people actually involved with the developing and contributing to the project this means we either pat ourselves on the back or just listen to the whiney retard-fest.

I should go find my old 'new rules' post from last summer...

[Nemo]

How so? I don't comment on a map unless I've tried it. Most of the maps I have are good, so it works out <_<

However, I have to wade through ~5-7 bad-not great maps to find every decent one. That's a fact of any modding/mapping community. I don't see why it would be different here O.o

[mother]

How so? I don't comment on a map unless I've tried it.
<snip>
However, I have to wade through ~5-7 bad-not great maps to find every decent one.

By the mear fact that you try the maps you have elevated yourself above the bulk of the grief-causing-inderviduals, I think.

However by reading that second part... You seriously flame 5-7 people for something that they donated, simply because you don't care for it?

Course you wouldn't... We're also, generally, not talking about constructive commentary...

There is a world of difference between:
a)"You should fix the mex radius, it seems a bit too small."
b)"I think it would look more atmospheric if you only put the snow on the higher hills"
and
c)"What a fugly stupid map, I'm not even going to download it it's so stupid looking"

(a) is potentially constructive, from someone who played the map, concerns gameplay, and takes a moderate amount of effort to deal with.

(b)probably requires hours and hours of computer time... not the kinda thing most mappers want to hear directly after releasing the bastard child they just spent a few days working on. Always try to phrase such comments in as nice a way as possible, like, "And if you end up rerendering the map consider just placing the snow caps..."

(c)Yeah, like, die. Try coming home for dinner, looking at the food (dont dare taste it) then tell everyone how completely shit it is and dump the food on the floor See how well it works in the real world.
<edit>On second thought, walk into someone elses house and do it... Or maybe a soup -------. Not one of my better analogies...</edit>

Now what I meant about that kinda sophistic logic was that although what you say sounds, and probably is, reasonable, it's total crap as a justification for being a whiney asshat and flaming people for having the nerve to donate their time and energy. Just because you don't like 80% of the maps released shouldn't give you free reign to flame and abuse people for contributing. In your case I don't think you really meant it as such, but many others seem to.
FWIW Sophistic as in "Sophistry"

[jcnossen]

About b, you have to realise that a lot of people don't know how much work certain things are. They might think fixing the mex radius is just as much work as moving snow around, so you can't really blame them for not phrasing like "If you, by any chance, accidentally run into rebuilding your map and changing the texture, you might..."

[Nemo]

Of course I don't flame a map I don't like. It just doesn't last very long in my maps folder. However, you might want to consider that lots of people don't know how the map making process goes - #1) on your list, I figured was an easy enough change. #2) on your list, I heard something about requiring images, but still thought that it was a minor tweak. Apparently not, so that's something that mappers should realize the general public isn't aware of.

If someone suggests a graphical change, its because they (probably) think that it would improve the map. They ARE trying to help, but it comes off as an insult because they don't realize the process behind it.

Or maybe I'm giving people too much credit.

Edit: Zaphod is sneaky, and I'm a slow poster.

[forbidin]

heh, this is a cool post. I hate whinners and ppl who just want more who haven't a clue on balancing issues or anything.

Myself, I prob fall into both categories. I do say thanks, but I am also one to express my concerns and comments. If something seems a little off, I'm one to tell someone. Of course...I do go overboard once in a while....there was one map I reviewed that I just hated and it wasn't a pretty review :3

I reviewed demos and maps and the like back in the day ota days so I know what makes a good map good and what makes a great one (same for demos). I don't mean to be a stickler when I review maps (like Forboding's) as good instead of great. Map makers are getting better with each map, so in time, they will make some truely amazing maps and we will d/l them regardless of size.

(FYI, most good ota maps were around the 10-30 MB range...so its all good to me hahaha)

I know you put hard work into the map, and it shows. They have great gameplay and I enjoy them very much. However, I am a firm believer that there is always someone/something better. I will only mark something as great if it is truely something unique and amazing that offers some really unique gameplay. Applies to looks as well.

I have my own way of saying thanks, and it is usually in the way of helping other ppl test their mods/maps. I know I helped Forboding test some of his maps before they were released and offered feedback. I also help Caydr test some pre-releases of his AA. Its my way of giving back to the community, even if it isn't much. I just do what I can to help the devs.

So in closing of this long ass post, I apologize to those few who I gave harsh reviews.... and if I haven't said thanks yet to everyone, (as there are too many to thank)...so yes...thanks.

[mongus]

wont read a thing, but advice you to personally bash the morons that fullfill with crap every anything, most of times are total ignorants that dont even play the game, and if they do, they still dont get it. get used to them, and to puting them back. another good thing is totally ignore them, is not that they will be able to do any constructive criticism anyhow.

[Forboding Angel]

Forbidin, regardless of what anyone says, you are a nice person. Sometimes you say things a bit off, but the intention is good and I appreciate that. I do like having you test my maps, and while there are somethings that I intend to be the way they are, it is nice to get good feedback from an experienced player.

Also @ forbidin. I believe that my more common maps fit in the good category. I think that they DO fit in the great gameplay category (with exceptions here and there). The reason that I think that they don't fit within the GREAT category is because of all the bitching and whining I started releasing maps at lower graphical quality.

Unless we start rendering with 1 to 1 ratios, no maps will ever fit in the Great category. I have achieved the best graphics quality at high compression lately, but it's the compression is still obvious. I believe I have decided that from here on out all maps I release will be done at a 1 to 1 ratio, regardless of size. I may release 2 versions per map. 1 hi res one low. I havn't figured out exactly my plans on it yet.

@ mongus: Ignoring it only makes the problem worse. Like a small virus that becoms a cancer if you let it fester long enough.

[forbidin]

heh, I been battling that since the ota days. Pride and experience are the worse enemies when it comes to criticing.

There have been times when all of us just wanna say omgwtf u noob this is fugly to t3h max0rs0rs0rs0rs0rs0rs!

I know we have all been guilty at one time when we went off the handle at someone for something they made, or suggested...regardless if we could do it better or not (myself included)

This post is not only for the lamers who constantly do it, but its also a reminder for all of us. I accept that fact that I can be harsh and I do regret it later. Even if a map is ugly and it sucks in gameplay, we just gotta remember we were noobs ourselves when it came to...well, everything.

I would love to give map making a try, but I am waiting for the new features to come in (and a really good tutorial to boot).

As for great and amazing maps, Looks aren't everything, but they do help in the WOW factor. Just take a look at some of the OTA maps ppl made. Tamec was a great site (not sure where it is now) and there have been some truely awesome maps that just blow the other ones out of the water. Something truely original are some of the best maps. Just let the imagination do the work and you can make some pretty bad ass maps like those in ota....mmm...

[Forboding Angel]

Something truely original are some of the best maps. Just let the imagination do the work and you can make some pretty bad ass maps like those in ota....mmm...

Gameplay wise, yes. Graphically... no.

Forbidin, I would be happy to run you through map making if you like. Only thing required is that you have teamspeak. THere is way too much to cover without using voice chat. a 5 dollar microphone from walmart (or your favorite retailer :D is preferred as well. But at any rate, I can run you through it, no problem.

[Kixxe]

Hmm, yea, it's not like you can acully ignore the idiots... It's agsin't fabric of space time, OR?

"Internet, Serious business"


Seriusly, Idiots has been around from the begining of time, and now they are using internet. Not everyone will contribute. IT WON'T HAPPEN!

Why do you pepole think there are restraining orders? Ignore buttons on every single peice of communication? Since you don't want to lisen to ceartin pepole

And really, there is nothing to be offended over. Wow, a guy on the internet called your map sucky. WOW, BIG MOTHERFUCKING DEAL. Haven't half the pepole in this treadh said something like "Yea, most pepole behave, but the 10% that don't are really annoying."

And hey, don't anyone find in hypocritical to call the idiots "whiners" in this treadh?



STFU, noob.

[AF]

Foreboding Angel, I like your maps a lot, primarily because they'reassymetrical, I dotn see many maps that are good and those that arent resemble the common pitfalls that a crap OTA map had, people expct too much and they're greedy, so when they come to sprign and see these thgins they're expecting a lot and they dotng et it most times, they from opinions, and those thata re too n00bish or full of rubbish and dont try and test out the godo maps, simpyl rpesume they have the right to diss because they've seena pattern and they're sticking to it.

With NTAI I've developed a thign where there are 3 sizeable camps, 1 camp tells em I'm doing a good job if they meet me, the second is totalyl ignorant (100 downlaod sin 20 hours of a version of NTAI that is guaranteed to crash your system yet only 1 person plucked up the willpower to actually say soemthing)), then the third is the ones you describe perfectly here.

I must say if you support a mapper/modder/porter/modeller etc then say so, praise! Many times I've sene an AI post with a new release and people complain about it, and I fele like giving up. And the good mappers go through this all the time, they have to post somethign that looks amazing to get a good response, such as runecrafters response after eh posted the shots of the asteroid base map. People will praise the map and not him, then they'll downlaod it, say ti looks good, then after a day rot wo it'll fade totally, and nobody will mention it save as an example in another thread. If he released a crappy map however it'll be talked about for weeks and used as ammo against him.

That and then soemtimes we do give good ideas and constructive critiscism. Then somebody else gives advice that closely resembles conformist OTA simple map practices and they follow that instead and we get a map that looks like all the others but with a slightly different texture, different lighting, and a skybox if we're lucky.

[Forboding Angel]

@kixxe

No one has ever called any of my maps sucky. Ther have been gripes and flame wars here and there.

If you have the balls to call my maps sucky, then that tells me that you are the kind of person that thinks the map "Atlantic" is the best thing since sliced bread.

You have the audacity to call be a noob? lol Play me in game and say that. I would love to grind your face into my beautiful evergreen highly compressed because ppl whine to much terrain.

Put or shut up. In the mean time, jump into a pool with a ttoaster.

[Sheekel]

Ive made mediocre attempts to contribute things...

My thankyou went unnoticed, but im sure most people's do:

http://taspring.clan-sy.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=2461

Why cant we all just play fair eh? No need to go around flaming people. Everyone breathe deeply, and vent your anger on some Core Patterned ass instead of on eachother. Lets be friends!

[/end lame psychological help]

[Kixxe]

@kixxe

No one has ever called any of my maps sucky. Ther have been gripes and flame wars here and there.

If you have the balls to call my maps sucky, then that tells me that you are the kind of person that thinks the map "Atlantic" is the best thing since sliced bread.

You have the audacity to call be a noob? lol Play me in game and say that. I would love to grind your face into my beautiful evergreen highly compressed because ppl whine to much terrain.

Put or shut up. In the mean time, jump into a pool with a ttoaster.

See? This is what i mean! I don't even know what maps are what (nor do i care, but whatever). You could have esaly avoided this bye just ignoring me. If you read the rest of my post, and not just the "Stfu noob" part, you would have seen that i was arguing how pepole should't take the internet seriusly and that times will change, but idoits will always be a part of it. Whatever "it" is.

You won't change anyone behavior over the internet. You can make em realise something, but most of the time they won't have it in mind, don't have the will or time, or just don't give a shit.



Now, let's give this whole, IGNORE the idiot thingy i've been talking about.
I'll be the idoit, with the power of writing l33t with my forehead (And someone is bound to make a joke about a "fitting role") and you'll be the whiny map maker who thinks his maps are gold and anyone who don't know how to make maps should shut up.

"Lolz li3 ur maps suxxor. y31ow is liek so gay man. fuckiing fagoot! LOL"

And now you... do nothing. and it's all over. Was that so hard?

Now, if you excuse me, i have a "ttoaster" to meet.

[Forboding Angel]

@ kixxe

If you think that everyone should ignore you, then why did you post in the first place. You're only succeeding in making yourself look like a moron.

You insult a typo? lol, how lame are you?

Btw you idiot... In my previous post I said I thought my maps were good, not "gold". Literacy FTW!!!

Compared to yours, they are gold considering you have no idea how to make them. Congrats. You have managed to make yourself look like an idiot. I applaud you.

Edit: Since you want to play the grammar police game...

It's "by" not "Bye"

arguing how pepole should't take the internet seriusly and that times will change, but idoits will always be a part of it. Whatever "it" is.

Do I even need to start?

[j5mello]

this is in no offense to anyone but look what this thread has become:

THE EXACT THING IT WAS COMPLAINING ABOUT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

someone (read: forboding) tries to bring something to the attention of the community and it devolves into a (extremely minor) flame war.

like i said before i talk to forboding on ts a lot and the work he puts into these map is way more obvious when i listen to him talk.

P. S. @targon: sry about my first post in this thread. i am a slow poster and forgot to update the webpage before postin (it has been edited)

P. P. S. PLAY DIVIDED SHORES (Forboding's new map) IT PWNS!!!

[Forboding Angel]

Thanks for the comments mello, however this is not all about me as you know. It's about everyone who tries to contribute the the spring community is some way shape or form, unlike kixxe who feels that contributing his big mouth to the community is enough.

Edit: Does this thread prove my entire point or what?

You can not throw a person insult at someone and not expect them to get offended. That's just idiocy. If you are walking down the street and someone yells a very derogatory racial slur at you, you would be offended.

[Tim Blokdijk]

@ Forboding Angel (and others)

I personally don't have any problem with people that make a comment that I find insulting.
The way I deal with it is to tell them that I find them offensive and why.
And if necessary explain what they could do better next time.
Works great, I lose the irritation by pointing out my problem and they understand that what they are doing is giving someone a headache.

So in a real live example:
In a certain way I'm attacked by you for leeching hundreds of open source projects and only participating in two. (OpenOffice and Spring)
I presume this was not you intention but still you did.
I think it's not effective to express your frustration like this.
I would like you to address the offender directly once he (or she) is making you feel frustrated.

There are two things (tricks) that are important here to.
- You have to speak about yourself in relation to the other.
In my example I started every sentence with "I" followed by "you" that's good as I'm now speaking about myself in relation to you.
- You need to keep your message friendly. (polite)
People only accept your/a message if it's not forced on them.

Great, now with this new found knowledge, please enlighten others and keep this a nice and friendly community.
As atm you are all just a bunch of whining bitches...

[Min3mat]

hehe u r following in my footsteps kixxe ^-^ i used to do the same thing, now i just generally flounder in the seas of ignorance and bathe in the light of noobism ^-^