Spring RTS Engine

tanelorn wrote:Well its easy to blast a base and a comm if the situation is right. Slashers can keep up with a commander and keep shooting at him while outrunning his advance. Instigators can rush behind buildings and shoot at them while being hidden from turrets and moving to stay away from a commander. If you kill all his energy then he can't keep his turrets firing.

His main problem was not dragonteething his base. In castles its easier than in open maps.

Why do you bother defending him?

His main problems seem to be: Not dragon teething anything, not building an attack force and not building defense structures (on castles(!). I mean, i dont know _any_ map more secure from rushes.)

Your scenario would descripe a bad situation if those intigators and slashers just appeared from nowhere. But the mere fact that they were build many screens away first, and than drove all the way there show that he could have build _something_ besides those solars you say they hide behind... Even the best microing cant keep units alive if the defender has multible units on their own.



Btw: warlord, could you upload the replay to FU? Would be interested in seeing what really happened...

Even though the player in question is with a diferent nick (balmtiger), i'm willing to bet it is the same person.
If not, it's an example of another asshole doing the exact same thing.

Here's the replay:
http://fileuniverse.com/?p=showitem&ID=1549

You can see him losing to a crapy atack made after 5 mins in game and it's atempts to crash the game/annoy us. We stoped the server at times and you can see it's CPU usage, Ping and his coments.
balmtiger!

I'm sorry ocusa, but the problem is just that you suck. I honestly don't care what unspoken rules you have with your freinds, your unspoken rules suck and they don't exist for really anyone else. Rushing if a very viable stratigey, it has downsides and upsides, and if you get taken out by a rush that is not the fault of unfair play by the rusher. As long as he isn't using third party software or sabatogeing the game against his allys he is compeating within the rules of the game, and is compleatly legitimate in whatever he is doing.

Many players play with no rush rules, and many people are willing to play in that setting, but if you just join up a random game and don't mention that you want to play no rush rules it's entirely your own fault if you die to an early rush.

As it stands all you've accomplished here is having most of us insta kick balmtiger when he joins our games for being a lamer.

As an aside; I thought dragon-teething defenses was somewhat redundant in Spring, because units auto aim for the centre of the unit, rather than its base?

hehe... weiner rush...

Warlord Zsinj wrote:As an aside; I thought dragon-teething defenses was somewhat redundant in Spring, because units auto aim for the centre of the unit, rather than its base?

Indeed, I mostly use the dragon teeth to keep the 5 krogoth away from my fusions so I can kill them with my 50 brawlies.

Ok, now i have seen the replay.

So you created 4 solars first, than 2 mexes (walking around wasting time), than a airfield.... and 10 construction airplanes. Of course in "aircraft cloud" formation, not actually building anything.

So the enemy comes and you have _nothing_ that can shoot besides your commander, while everybody in the game (including your teammate) already has a small army and some tower(s).

And then comes the enemy, and after killing those planes, what do _you_ do? Building solars... O_o.

Players like that should lose. The game would be bad if they didnt.

IMSabbel wrote:Ok, now i have seen the replay.

So you created 4 solars first, than 2 mexes (walking around wasting time), than a airfield.... and 10 construction airplanes. Of course in "aircraft cloud" formation, not actually building anything.

So the enemy comes and you have _nothing_ that can shoot besides your commander, while everybody in the game (including your teammate) already has a small army and some tower(s).

And then comes the enemy, and after killing those planes, what do _you_ do? Building solars... O_o.

Players like that should lose. The game would be bad if they didnt.

BUT THE UNSPOKEN RULE!!! NO ONE CAN ATTACK ANOTHER PLAYER FOR AT LEAST 20 MINUTES IF YOU WANT A GOOD GAME!!!!!!!!!

lol

Wow; after watching that replay... I mean.... wow.

He literally did nothing including DURING the attack (it was not a rush, it was a well put together military force of level 1 units); he had his commander and presumabally enough power to opperate the D-gun but chose to have it build more solar collectors.

Then he complains and starts making up terms to describe why it was unfair.

I mean a rush is like when your playing arm, build an aircraft plant, force build a seaplane fighter (actually a gunship that fires a cannon round for those not suave on arm l1 aircraft) and send it to the start position of your opponent because you know the best defence he's going to have is a LLT and with effective microing you can beat it then take out his LLt, base, and his commander. In other words rushing generally means exploiting knowing where your opponent starts, and force building very fast units early on with the commander; it dose not involve slowly invading with a collection of units.

I think I'm going to jump on the 'will not play in a game with Balmtiger' bandwagon.

tbh i think its tanelorn under a different nick
next time u find a lame player u think is tanelorn please PM it to everyone besides him. many ppl want to play with ppl who can't play well, however NOONE wants to play with someone who can neither play well nor remain fun to beat and just spams economy and annoys you with the chat

I think you are using the wrong term... it's supposed to be "weenie" rush, refering to the wimpyness of the attacking units as apposed to the term weiner, which infers that those who do it are weiners.

A proper weenie rush is getting peewees or other cheap level ones out so quick and enough to make a good rush against the infractructure of an opponent, hopefully getting opposing commander to dgun one of his important buildings or just plain killing any weak players so they are not a threat.

It sucks to lose like this because it means you suck. I lose like this all the time, it's frustrating and I try to figure out how to defend against it.

the random enemies scripts are a great way to practice rush defence... if you can't survive to Krogoths with the default script you are doing something wrong...

im peewee rusher...
defending agaist peewees is llt + dragonsteeth or more peewees ... but i still havn't discovered good way to keep ur metal and energy production safe...

the best way to prevent rushing is... go play map that is BIG

Masse wrote:im peewee rusher...
defending agaist peewees is llt + dragonsteeth or more peewees ... but i still havn't discovered good way to keep ur metal and energy production safe...

You don't. You just make sure that you destroy way, way more metal/energy worth in Peewees than he destroys in infrastructure, and then rebuild and kick his ass. But yeah, LLT's do the job well.

oh... and i seen one nice thing in rushing and thats when i rush the enemy don't have enought energy to fire with dgun... and mine rushes are allways agaist the enemy commander... and 1 or 2 peewees hit the resources

I'm a strong believer in radar coverage. I put up a radar tower even before I build my factory. It's harder for rushers to surprise you if you see them way before they see you =)

FizWizz wrote:I'm a strong believer in radar coverage. I put up a radar tower even before I build my factory. It's harder for rushers to surprise you if you see them way before they see you =)

Me too. Thats was one of the worst build orders I've ever seen, any chance you've heard of the d-gun?

Sounds to me as a sucky player who haven`t got so much experience under his belt yet....

Warlord Zsinj wrote:I have to agree with everyone here.

In TA, the byword was always "anything goes". Both players start out with the same tools infront of them. If a player defeats you by using strategy x, you have to learn how to use strategy x better than that player, or learn a strategy that defeats that one. I hope this has transferred to Spring.

Many people used to complain about rushing, because they couldn't deal with it - as if it was a flaw in the game. It is rather a flaw in the player.

This sounds like it makes sense until you think about it more deeply. In XTA, some units are simply unstoppable unless your enemys defence is very specialized, and that takes alot of time and resources.

Here are some situations in which you will lose the game if your defense is not perfect:

1. Early game rushes by tanks. If you haven't dedicated yourself to placing DT, LLTs, a HLT, and your own tank squad, the enemy tanks will get past your light defenses and kill your solars / vehicle plant. Your commander will only stop them if they drive by them.

2. Early game rushes by lvl1 gunships. If you don't have several aa towers up, 2 light gunships will destroy your commander.

3. Scout kbot or scout car rush. A pack of 3-4 are quick to make, and take many LLT shots to kill. THey outrun tanks, peewees / aks, and easily outrun the commander. They can hide behind your buildings while your units try to circle around them and attack them, but they just run away and come back from a dif direction. Only by having several turrets and aa towers can you stop them.

4. Later game Goliath rush. If you do not have long DT walls and many turrets, a couple goliaths will go straight to the rear of your base and kill everything, they have so many HitPoints it takes a massive defense to stop them before they reach your base.

5. Brawler swarm. It takes so many flakkers to stop a brawler swarm they are the most effective tactic in the game. Brawlers have a disproportionale offensive / defensive ability compared to the defenses needed to destroy them, that if you do not dedicate the majority of your resources to making flakkers you can not stop them.

6. Krogoth. Krogoth was made to be almost unstoppable, and he is unless you have rows of ahnilators or a buzzsaw pointed right at him. I was in a game where 12 nukes were fired on one and he walked out of this deep crater to continue attacking a base. If you are not completely prepared to stop a Krogoth, you have lost the game when one (or three) appears.

7. My favorite, a mixed assault force. Lvl1 cannon fodder in the front, 5x Sumos and 10x Cans in the middle, Jammers, mobile flakkers, and arty tanks / kbots in the rear. If they stay jammed until you reach the enemy base, almost nothing can stop you. This is a good thing, you have used your brain, made a tactical approach, and are not just selecting a swarm of units and giving them a move order.

In my opinion, this is the way base assaults should be done, but in XTA, most players just mass-produce the most imbalanced units they can make and throw a swarm of them at the enemy. The sad thing is, in XTA, it works very well. So instead of it being a tactics / strategy game, XTA becomes a "whoever has the most metal and energy production wins" game.

Anyway, this thread is not just about someone who is too stupid to defend his base. It's also about the balance of XTA units and the problem of certain units being imbalanced and able to exploit the cost of making units vs. the cost of making defenses.

Tanelorn and the other dude... why dont you make your own mod and balance it and then you cant complain about things being unbalanced? or if you dont want to do that just play with the OTA mod or UH

But in any game its difficult to achieve something that pleases everyone