Spring RTS Engine

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:most of those ideas seem badly thought out, although i have often thought that it would be good to give ak/pw + jeffy/wesel bigger LoS so players lacking coms can still sight for their missles to some ability

you have zippers/freakers for this. thats why their LoS has been buffed.

TheMightyOne wrote:

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:most of those ideas seem badly thought out, although i have often thought that it would be good to give ak/pw + jeffy/wesel bigger LoS so players lacking coms can still sight for their missles to some ability

you have zippers/freakers for this. thats why their LoS has been buffed.

but they're never used for this due to their cost, they're just used as raiders

how big are their los-range compared to com and fake-com

Im fervently against converting XTA from an RPG to an RTS

Tribulex wrote:Im fervently against converting XTA from an RPG to an RTS

one of ur best posts ever (besides your ms-paint posts)

+1 to trib

The only thing people are agreeing on is removing the dgun and live crap, other than that you arent going to get any consensus on changes, everyone knows better than everyone else (without playing the mod usually)

Having said that xta dev is pretty stale atm so I would say just make a test version and try to get people to play it. Current xta devs seem to release one version a year introducing some new crazy shit like walking ships that noone really cares about :p. Would be much better if someone who wants to fix stuff was current dev imo.

Well, it's good we have a dev at least. It's not so easy to "fix stuff" because as you wrote, there isn't consensus about much.

Walking boats may have sounded as a joke, but they have fulfilled a role imo. People have used them.

You could just agree to not touch balance and let the game evolve...

I'd agree to not touch balance but atm 1v1s are broken by the dgun and survive tactic. It shouldnt be hard to allow xta to play well in both team and 1v1 games. Just make it so the lol tactics arent available too early in the game?

Jools wrote:Well, it's good we have a dev at least. It's not so easy to "fix stuff" because as you wrote, there isn't consensus about much.

Walking boats may have sounded as a joke, but they have fulfilled a role imo. People have used them.

To fix the thing everyone has been complaining about for weeks is hard? I had assumed just change some dgun range values or something similar.

The walking ships are funny but useless, resources can be spent in better ways in any situation I have seen. Im just saying maybe dev time would be better spent to improve things that everyone will notice (crashers not firing bug?) rather than on units which get built for fun once every 30 games?

The fact you can dgun and kill com is not necessarily a 1v1 game breaker.

So, at game start, how do you stop people morphing, walking over to your start and dgunning everything on a small map?

Multiple AA units fail to fire regularly, the worst offenders by far being jethro and arm AA hover.

Com dgun lolfail could be sorted very easily: I am all for removing complosion edge effectiveness, never thought it was necessary in the first place )

Did the Neutron ever get fixed?

AA hovers cost too little, or hovertanks cost too much, either way decent players tend to spam AA as mainline hover unit instead of tanks, and they are super duper kiting machines, could prolly do with a nerf.

Tim-the-maniac wrote:The only thing people are agreeing on is removing the dgun and live crap, other than that you arent going to get any consensus on changes, Babbles knows better than everyone else )

Fixed

Having said that xta dev is pretty stale atm so I would say just make a test version and try to get people to play it. Current xta devs seem to release one version a year introducing some new crazy shit like walking ships that noone really cares about :p. Would be much better if someone who wants to fix stuff was current dev imo.

Highlighted part you were wrong with, Devs?

Also, Noruas once said to me "You want to fix everything, I want to add a load of crazy stuff, you then want me to fix the crazy stuff before adding new stuff. That's where we differ".

Tim-the-maniac wrote:

Jools wrote: To fix the thing everyone has been complaining about for weeks is hard? I had assumed just change some dgun range values or something similar.

But we don't want a shorter dgun

... and if you adjust the complosion range then it makes for more combombing.

FaerieWithBoots wrote:Hi raaar, nice to see new ppl thinking along with the mod. However, i disagree with some of this.

- disable com dgunning com and living (imo it's one of the reasons players dislike this mod)
This issue comes up in every XTA thread sooner or later, so i think we agreed on fixing this.

- construction kbots and vehicles :wait for a few seconds on ready state instead of closing immediately. This will change balance, cause they will be more efficient at helping factories build lev1 units and making lines of dragon's teeth.
How does is it effect ballance, does it appply to one side only?

- should vehicles really be stronger than kbots on flat areas, or should both factories have equally strong options (but with some differences on flavour and unique units). Many maps have big flat areas, making vehicles a better option from the start. Not much choice there.

They are different type of units both with their own role and unique unitset. If one type is used more often then another on a certain map, then thats a map issue. Imo Kbots have a decent chance fighting veh on small/medium size maps (ie geyser planes, altair , tartarus) Compared to BalancedAnnihilation kbots are incredibly strong.

- remove dedicated mine layers from the game, and give all construction units the ability to build mines and mine removers.
All cons minebuilder? ^^ That would result in some funny situations. Con-planes become bombers then, as they can build a mine faster then you can take the plane down. lol Mines are an issue that deserves its own thread, maybe ill make one later.

- increasing the range of most short-ranged, non-missile units. How would XTA play if non-missile units' ranges were increased 25%? or 50%?) This would imply changes to commanders and a lot of other units, though.
This is basicly rebuilding the entire mod. Why would you want to do this in the first place? Ranges are fine as they are imo, maybe some small tweaks but not 50% of the units.


- What about increasing the los? What if the average unit had a sight radius of 600 instead of 400.
You can scout with planes, zippers, radar, llt (as mentioned before) as well. Only moment in the game where scouting becomes difficult is in midgame when you can't get units into the opponents base anymore. You have to guess your opponents intentions at that stage sometimes.


- the arm raven. this unit isn't that expensive and has massive firepower. It will miss its target, but if you get three of four, they can clear a big area with one volley. Imo the unit should be reworked.
Raven is fine imo. Costs a lot, firing takes a lot of E, it is slow and therefore easely killed by T1 and it has very little hitpoints. In return you get massive firepower without accuracy.


- should tier2 units and structures be tweaked down to be more accessible but not as powerful when compared to tier1 units?

T2 labs offer "cheaper" units as well, ie pelican, crock, morty.
T2 is supposed to be more efficient then T1, the labs costs you 2500 metal after all. Making T2 more accesible is an interesting idea though. It would be good to see T2 more often in 1v1. But rebalancing the new factory costs will be extremely hard. T2 bots give you a big advantage in the periode directly after you have finished the lab. 2 mortys, a single pyro or one maverick wreck havock on T1. Making those more accessible would break the game with their current costs.

Balance isn't just something between factions. Imo. Even if good players can compete using both factions, there are issues that would qualify as balance problems:
- lack of variety in build orders and tactics
- units not worth building (they are either too specific and not very effective at it, or just not good enough in general)

Making level 1 builders more effective at helping to build tier1 units(they are built in a few seconds, so the builders' delay isn't negligible) and making fortifications could have an impact on the effectiveness of early tier2 raids (imagine the usual few panthers or pyros bumping into lines of dragons teeth, with some scattered defenders behind)


Some of the ideas i put forward would imply a rebalancing of the mod as a whole. But that isn't as difficult as it may seem, provided there are clear guidelines on how the game should be played :
what should be the average range? los? unit cost? Should units be task-specific or general? should tech transition be smooth or steep? what's the role of the commander? Should counters be soft or hard (rock-paper-scissors), etc..


As it is now in xta, tier2 units aren't massable when you first reach tier2, but, as moho mines are twice as cheaper than in ota and provide twice as much resources, they are massable later on. What usually happens is a gap when people reach tier2 and they find that they can't push with a few units. The action stops, they improve economy, and then they mass.

About the raven, to clarify, i think it is too strong. Compare the stats:
core_mobile_artillery / Mobile Artillery
hp=2413.0
speed=1.0
metal cost=2008.0
range=1240.0
dps=140.0900900900901
spike dmg=933
(reasonably accurate)

arm_raven / Raven
hp=1500.0
speed=1.9
metal cost=2042.0
range=1400.0
dps=266.6666666666667
spike dmg = 800*6 = 4800
(inaccurate)

with 1.9 speed, the raven isn't slow, it's actually faster than many units. Most artillery units have 1.2 speed or less. The raven is faster than lev1 infantry kbots. It has MASSIVE spike damage capability and it's fast enough to come into range, shoot a volley and retreat.


About the game learning curve. Imo xta and spring in general is a big unforgiving for new players, you wander a bit with the commander to make a metal extractor, a lev 1 raider comes and killes your eco. The user interface should also be improved.

Most successful games have one thing in common: easy to learn, hard to master. This is hard to learn, hard to master.

You guys see many things set in stone....How has xta population changed in the last few years? How has the Spring population changed? Where is this going?

did you just compare core artillery with arm raven? lol

raaar wrote:Most successful games have one thing in common: easy to learn, hard to master. This is hard to learn, hard to master.

Examples of such rts's?

JohannesH wrote:

raaar wrote:Most successful games have one thing in common: easy to learn, hard to master. This is hard to learn, hard to master.

Examples of such rts's?

i liek xta as it is now, maybe it should be noob-friendlier. but if u played ota or ba, u know the fundamental basics.