Spring RTS Engine

smoth wrote:

Jools wrote:Why does it not have a place in any spring project?

why do I owe you an explanation?

You don't. I just gave you another opportunity to stand behind what you write.

It isn't that I have to stand by anything. you are the one lobbying for others to do work. You have to sell the idea.

Right now you are suggesting that a modern convention be applied to games that are entirely space war... hell none of them even feature civilian populous.

it isn't that we didn't think about civilians, it is just that is isn't a concern/interest/whatever.

you didn't make half an effort to even look at the projects that are around and if they would have a use/need for a feature. Instead you wanted us to do all the work to add some contrived carebear moral bullshit to our projects.

guess what, in gundam, they gas millions of dudes and drop their space city on other cities for fun. Don't expect me to ever consider civilian casualties. The *A projects are set in genocidal wars where it is clones vs computer patterns. S44 is before the geneva shit and you should be happy there are no piles of dead jews. I mean really, did you even think about this?

For the Total Annihilation based games, there are civilians involved, and this is actually what the conflict between arm and core is about.

Taken from TA wikipedia page:

In the far future the galaxy is ruled by a benevolent central body of humans and artificial intelligences called the Core (a contraction of "Consciousness Repository"). The Core's technological and economic triumphs have allowed humanity to colonize most of the Milky Way and enjoy peace and prosperity. However, the balance is broken by a technological breakthrough which allows the consciousness of a human being to be reliably transferred into a machine, thereby granting theoretically indefinite life in a process called "patterning". Following a mandate imposed on humanity by the Core requiring everyone to undergo patterning as a public health measure, a rebel band is formed out of colonies from the edges of the galaxy (hence named the Arm), whose members refused to leave their natural bodies to join the Core's machines.

I don't want anyone to do any work, yet. This is not in the implementation phase yet.

smoth wrote:S44 is before the geneva shit and you should be happy there are no piles of dead jews. I mean really, did you even think about this?

Actually S44 happens after 3 geneva conventions and for most part of the war they were actually followed (or pretended to be followed) - ie captured enemy combatants were not killed.

They dealt with prisoners of war. Protection of civilians was added in 1949.

Those responsible for orders to kill civilians are prosecuted by international criminal tribunals - you can meet some from former Yugoslavia in Hague today.

Licho wrote:Actually S44 happens after 3 geneva conventions and for most part of the war they were actually followed (or pretended to be followed) - ie captured enemy combatants were not killed.

so they would not auto target civies or surrendering combatants but would possibly be able to target them?

Im not talking about practicality of such rules in games, its silly imo, i was just pointing out to factual error.

Imo for S44 its doable, but for other games I don't think so.

For example in CA you have sentient robots only, they are not covered by any international law Also they don't have any civilian population.

I dislike trivialization or even glorification of pain and violence in games, but I think film industry and even news are more to blame for that.

Human civilization is much more "civilized" than it used to be, crime rates and number of violent death are insignificant fractions of what they used to be just couple hundred years ago. And yes even if you include WW1 and WW2.
Present day conflicts are "low impact" compared to world's population.

true enough, just seems silly that people want to see vidia gaems penalize players for collateral damage.

Achilla wrote:A lot of sensible and truth

^^ This man speaks the truth.

Achilla wrote:War is war and my hope is that one day we will get away with this idiotic political correctness and depict war games as actual war.

Kill, murder, rape, loot, exterminate. Nothing to add.

Not true. For instance, the wars the USA fight are only to bring peace, freedom, prosperity and democracy to all the people of the world.

So you win, by tricking your opponent into bombing your human shield- great idea, i like it, finally some humanism shielding my dragons teeths.

Dont you know children, the Talibs are handing out free candy!!!!


I demand this for every game, to add tactical deep for the evil side, including a tactical Journalism Scoopzoom from Orbit, were every bullet fire in the area makes you instant criminal. Comes to mind, how seldom you see journalistic articles condeming both sides in a war stupid. Guess everybody has to be a fansoldierboi somewhere.

Also i think there were civilian toasters and cleaning robots ingame at CAs.

zwzsg wrote:

Achilla wrote:War is war and my hope is that one day we will get away with this idiotic political correctness and depict war games as actual war.

Kill, murder, rape, loot, exterminate. Nothing to add.

Not true. For instance, the wars the USA fight are only to bring peace, freedom, prosperity and democracy to all the people of the world.

For better or worse, generally the good intentions in the first place have won out (ignoring Vietnam completely - That's what happens when you let politicians fight wars).

But yes, road to ruin, good intentions and all that.

I have to disagree with you Smoth - I think this concept could be interesting for some games (not for Spring flat out, obviously...). I only really see any potential in conjuction with tailor made maps really though.

Ie you have a part of the map that is a town or village, and that's somewhere you'll try not to do major combat actions. And eg, if the cowardly enemy has managed to slip in before you, it's your choice whether you bombard the city and face the concequences, or just leave him sit there (the game + map would of course need to made such that his advantage through holding it is not too great).

Obviously losing the game cause you kill a singe civilian is a pretty stupid concept for a multiplayer game. And off the top of my head I can't think up a penalty system that would fit in well with any of the Spring games I know of. And yes, the whole concept is highly unlikely to happen unless the poster/Jools is going to make it so (as this is truely not the first time it's been suggested...). Still - I see merit in the idea.

@Jools: The game referred too, by the way, was World Domination (also known as WD), but it's been unmaintained for a bit now. S44 is probably what too look at (or ask if they'd be interested - likely not though,as historically I think most civilians fled before the action arrived...)

he is talking about in a spring game sean.

Play this, it should solve your need for a fluffy kids game.

http://hko.aeriagames.com/playnow/

A) War is inevitable in every single species. In fact without it, none of us would have evolved.

B) The day spring has some fluffy mod I will kill myself.

The best thing about this thread is that prisoners of war were added to S44 almost half a year ago.

I've thought very seriously about adding civilians to P.U.R.E., who would inhabit the maps, and who each side could use in different ways. Resistance could get free resources from "recruiting" them (extra labor) and lose a lot of resources for killing them indiscriminately, Overmind would gain some minor resources from killing them, the Wolfen would gain small resources from capturing them, and lose small amounts from killing them, and Astrum Gallina would, of course, eat them

Mainly it's not that I don't think this is a good idea to at least include the concept of civilians in a war game- IRL, it's a very big deal, and I think it's dumb that RTS games don't include this concept. It's just a matter of having time, etc.

Civilians are one the elements I wanted in S44 single player, but between all the other tasks I have and the fact that nobody else on the team wants them, they're unlikely to appear.

Sefidel wrote:A) War is inevitable in every single species. In fact without it, none of us would have evolved.

Not true. War can only exist in civilised species, and there aren't many of those on earth.

"laws of war" is one of the most retarded ideas ever conceived. The point of war is to damage the enemy in every way possible. How the hell do you govern that with rules? its retarded srsly. If you say something about justice just know its always the losing sides fault.


yeah sorry jools interesting idea from a gameplay point of view but it just doesnt appeal to my moral integrity, but rather offends it.