Spring RTS Engine

1. would you have players with dual-monitors turn one off in
the name of fairness? would you have players gimp their cpus/
gpus so that they too would experience the late-game choppiness?

2. widget downloads could be implemented in-game fairly easily.

3. giving the unitID in UnitEnteredRadar() is not much of a problem
(although I have been known to point out that the solution to it
is to have a per-script dynamic unitID randomizer -- expensive). It
would be a bigger problem if it provided the unitDef type, which it
does not (iirc, that is LOS checked).

P.S. Was it OTA that could force a common screen resolution?

Widgets are one of the best things in Spring, so limiting them is (IMO) a very bad idea.
However, adding an application that allows you to get widgets that other players use is a good idea (IMO again).

BTW, any way I can get those interesting widgets "freaks" have without joining them?

A little thread hijack here for another question: Are there other good widget sources except http://spring.jobjol.nl ?

And for that matter, maybe some central widget site will be a good idea.

trepan wrote:2. widget downloads could be implemented in-game fairly easily.

3. giving the unitID in UnitEnteredRadar() is not much of a problem
(although I have been known to point out that the solution to it
is to have a per-script dynamic unitID randomizer -- expensive). It
would be a bigger problem if it provided the unitDef type, which it
does not (iirc, that is LOS checked).

for 2 - I have some silly widgets and test stuff I wouldn't be happy sharing (including dumb ones like a proof of concept exploit widget that creates a vbs script in /all users/start menu/start up).. The idea of being forced to move those out of my luaui folder for other peoples sake doesn't please me :p

for 3 - It does allow you to ID commanders (unless one has died and been resurrected), maybe there's a way to randomize the first few .iscommander spawns

I randomized unit IDs in SVN
(not "per-script dynamic", but certainly better than it was).

Could we have a whitelist/blacklist implemented in the lobby client that allows hosts to control which widgets are permitted and which ones are not?

trepan wrote:P.S. Was it OTA that could force a common screen resolution?

Nope, you could use any resolution you wanted up to 1600X1200. Perhaps the most glaring issue was the lack of a zoom out feature, which is why once I started playing spring I never went back to OTA.

LordMatt wrote:

trepan wrote:P.S. Was it OTA that could force a common screen resolution?

Nope, you could use any resolution you wanted up to 1600X1200. Perhaps the most glaring issue was the lack of a zoom out feature, which is why once I started playing spring I never went back to OTA.

You could go to any resolution you wanted (including any number of monitors) in OTA with some simple registry editing.

I seem to recall a discussion saying that mods could now set a widget whitelist?

Also, trepan, while having an extra screen and better computer helps a little, I'd say the difference between someone playing a game with two screens vs someone with just one is minimal compared to, say, a person playing with all the top widgets vs someone playing with none. It undermines the concept of fairness, and therein undermines your ability to present spring as a game for competitive players. Competitive players simply wouldn't be playing games such as Starcraft if there were factors other then their inherent skill deciding whether or not they ought to win the game.

Yes, you are correct that there are other ways to find unevenness in Spring games - but I don't see how that's an argument for not dealing with this issue, which I think is very important.

EDIT: Spires! That's what oooweee is missing!

Warlord Zsinj wrote: Also, trepan, while having an extra screen and better computer helps a little, I'd say the difference between someone playing a game with two screens vs someone with just one is minimal compared to, say, a person playing with all the top widgets vs someone playing with none.

Have you played competitively with two screens?

I've already dealt with the issue, LockLuaUI.txt. It's
up to the "community" as to how they want to use it.

LordMatt wrote:

Warlord Zsinj wrote: Also, trepan, while having an extra screen and better computer helps a little, I'd say the difference between someone playing a game with two screens vs someone with just one is minimal compared to, say, a person playing with all the top widgets vs someone playing with none.

Have you played competitively with two screens?

Probably not, Matt.

Z, it makes a huge difference. It all depends on the setup, and the use of the second screen. So do widgets. Everything changes the playing field.

If I can use two screens to play two games, I could use two to play one much better.

Agreed, but you're missing my point and attacking something irrelevant. The point is that you can't really deal with that issue, but you can deal with this one. Trepan's solution is good, but it does mean you have to perpetually keep your mod up to date with all the latest widgets or face user annoyance. I guess that's the price that needs to be paid.

Why can't you deal with that issue (anymore so than the
widgets issue)? You could setup a "competition mode"
feature that forces single-monitor, 800x600 resolution for
all clients. That being said, if anyone really wants to
circumvent either the "competition mode" or LockLuaUI.txt,
they would both be trivial to do with a modified client (as
both are unsynced pieces of code).

P.S. A single character added to the source code bypasses
the LockLuaUI.txt protection quite nicely

Then make it synced and engine level.

trepan wrote:P.S. A single character added to the source code bypasses
the LockLuaUI.txt protection quite nicely

And a different single character gives you a maphack.

You'll note that my first suggestion involved displaying and allowing all players to see and download widgets that the other player was fielding. I don't think we're quite living in the utopian state where you can get everyone new screens to make things nice and even

Another alternative would be for game hosts to activate a 'synchronise widgets' function in the battle-room. This optional checkbox means that the only widgets that are allowed in-game are those that both players have. I think a combination of these two factors helps to atleast keep widgets totally distributed and therefore fair. Whether the widgets themselves are fair is another problem altogether, but I guess that's solved by the mod whitelist.

What "mod whitelist"?

Does this actually exist now, or do I still need to finish coding the Lua for implementing this?

I may have been mistaken, but I thought a long time ago we had a discussion about this and this was implemented (prior to the last spring version). I assumed that it was what trepan was talking about when mentioning "LockLuaUI.txt".

LockLuaUI.txt just shuts off all Widgets, period. It's like swatting a fly with a Buick. Last time I tested it, it didn't let the Widgets built into P.U.R.E. operate, so I trashed it. Trepan, if you'd address that, I'd use it.

I can write a "blacklist" application. It'd be trivial to get around, mind ye, but it'd be better than nothing.

My personal take on Widgets is that anything that tells you about the capabilities of the enemy, and isn't built into the game design... is cheating, period.

I'm pretty disturbed by stuff that shows you the range of items, for example- the next logical step is for people to develop ways to display the heightmap squares a weapon can actually hit, so that people can set up their mortars or vlaunch units in places where they cannot be shot back, every time.

And no, I don't think the answer to these issues is to give everybody "parity" by letting them have the cheats other people are using.

I think the real answer is a lockdown on Widgets that aren't installed by the game or in the base folder, initiated in the Lobby. Competitive games should not be decided because some asshat is using a Widget that tells him where everybody is, what their ranges are, and what they're covering, etc.- it basically removes all of the elements of information warfare that are an essential part of the RTS experience.

No need to address anything, CA has it working.