Spring RTS Engine

I doubt there are many good teamgames played.
spring players in general just... suck ass.



=(

its a game and its about fun.
if you are playing it competetively for fun, and some on your team is playing simbase in a corner, they are runing your fun.
I have no problem with players who think in terms of their team, even if they are total noob. as long as they LISTEN TO INSTRUCTION FROM BETTER PLAYERS and LEARN FROM MISTAKES they are welcome.

if they steal a mex from a teammate, they are a total fail and will probably be kicked and taken; we dont tolerate douchebags in xta.
infact, any player who does not play the game competetively is not welcome in our games, because we play it competetively for fun.

if players want to piss around m stalling and dgunning allies thats fine, but they can do it by themselves with bots, or with other noobs on speedmetal.
if you porc in a corner when other players on your team are playing to win to get their fun, you are commiting just as much fail as the mex stealer; you are not playing with your team.

TBH, just reading that this kind of thing occurs makes me think that there should be some Lua written that prevents it. I would be very grumpy, if some random scrub grabbed my com, threw my units into a stupidly-planned rush against D he didn't bother to scout, re-arranged my econ, reclaimed my stuff... or in any way, shape or form altered how I chose to play the game. I think that that kind of behavior constitutes griefing, tbh, and should be a banning offense if proven.

It does not matter if the other player is "better" or not, either. If they're really superior, they will figure out how to use whatever I'm doing to their advantage.

If he/she is not capping spots, fine, I'll get 'em.

If he / she starts building a simbaes and is in the middle of tek 2 krog, then I'll steer rushes into it and get it over with, after I position some defenses and units to make sure it takes awhile and wastes the enemy's time- and if I kill their rush, then meh, I get their metal, plus the lousy player's metal.

If he/she's going Air but they're up front, then I can always front for them until they are able to use it, and then take control of their aircraft, if they can't even figure out how to dance their planes.

Basically, aside from complete and total incompetence of the "how 2 muv stuff on map" variety, there isn't any form of suck that people complain about that can't be either turned into a strength, turned into a trap for your opponents... or at least mitigated.

And if they can't, then that's just how it goes- IRL, not every general is competent, I may not have the right solution, and meh, it's just a game. It's not match play, and I'm not trying real hard. If I'm cursing and moaning about how some scrub played in a DSD game, then I am taking the game far too seriously.

The thing that all this seems to show to me is that there are many players who don't understand that large random team games aren't really competitive, unless they're match play between clans on a match-play map. Anything else is just screwing around, imo, so if you want to play really hardcore, fine- do it within the resources you personally control, make weakness into strength, and for goodness sakes, be kind to nubs, they will be better someday, and there just isn't any percentage in being a dick

Firstly, with regard to the idea of losing players 'a Whole Game', in the absence of any stats for team games, and the fact that most players play several a day, this is not a great loss.

Believe it or not, some people want to have fun and try to win in that half an hour they get to play. If the whole game is not a great loss, then your commander is not a great loss, and your mex is no loss at all.

Either you are trying to win, or you are playing a screensaver. If you want to do the second, perhaps you should communicate to the other players that that is your desire.

If the idea of an individuals responsibility to his team in a competitive environment is 'soviet' i dread to think what would have happened if the cold war went hot, it would have been hilarious to see US soldiers going AWOL because it 'infringes on their sovereignty'.

Belive me, I know how it is to fight 2v1 up to 5v1 for an extended time while my 'allies' tech up behind their strong defense line, leaving me alone. It is very frustrating, no wonder some might get pissed off and steal mexes/coms.

This happens to me almost every single game to the point i can barely play team games anymore.

This is why i harp on and on about aggression. I dont even care if you suck- it doesnt even matter. Id rather have a noob on the field fighting than a pro in the back whoring econ, if it means we lose before he is even ready to do anything.

It does not matter if the other player is "better" or not, either. If they're really superior, they will figure out how to use whatever I'm doing to their advantage.

Yes, by picking you up and dropping you to the frontline. And you, as an inferior player, should go 'thank you for helping us win this game'.

A large percentage of people play to win, because they enjoy competitive play- they enjoy out-thinking, out-witting and out-playing their opponents. When i pull off something really clever against an enemy who i know is doing his best to try and stop me, it feels really great. And yes, when i see something really clever pulled off against me i start thinking of ways i can beat it (or use it myself) and thats a lot of fun too.

I hate 1v4. Im not outthinking my opponents if they are such poor players that they cant even beat me with 4x the resources. If they do beat me, its brute force, not a clever play.

Thats what i play for. Thats my fix. Thats how i enjoy it. I dont play it for the pretty explosions or the messing around with simbase, i play it for the thrill of matching wits.

And honestly, if he is whining about his com being napped or his mexes reclaimed, he is taking the game far too seriously.

Saktoth wrote: Either you are trying to win, or you are playing a screensaver. If you want to do the second, perhaps you should communicate to the other players that that is your desire.

such is the attitude of a competitive player. The game's fun factor is a direct reflection of whether you win or lose. Not everyone shares your view saktoth. Sure you have a finite time to play each day but if all you want to do is WIN then you play with the players you know you work well with. If you are doing random pick up and expect the players all to work well then you are dead wrong.

As a "casual player" You play to have fun, maybe you are not good enough to win? That doesn't mean you will not give it your best or that your attempt might not contribute in the very least as a decoy for the enemy. I like to give a sporting match and if I win, that means I did well. However, if I lose I want to give the other guy a run for his money.

"it is not about the win or lose it is how you play the game"

I think that many people start out as casual and are just trying to have fun and see cool explosions. Some of them may like the win but other may just enjoy moving the units and killing shit. A player like me if I am playing for fun and not being competitive often will pull back then tell people what their hole is(because I have unfair knowledge about gundam). I have in the past and I have lost because of it. We have to nurture the new guys not crush them.


BTW: not trying to be contrarian, I am enjoying this convo :)

argh plays spring?

As a "casual player" You play to have fun, maybe you are not good enough to win?

in 1v1 this is a good mindset since the only man to lose will be you, however in teamgames this mindset will make your team lose, and the team consists of other people than you.

A casual player should not ruin the teamgame for other people.

such is the attitude of a competitive player. The game's fun factor is a direct reflection of whether you win or lose.

. If you are doing random pick up and expect the players all to work well then you are dead wrong.

Absolutely wrong attitude. This is why wc3 4v4/3v3 rt sucks balls. I've had people share their control to me from the beginning and say "pls play for me" or "brb 30 min shop", which comes pretty much close to your "i dont need to work in team-games" quote.

through your mindset the game becomes a lose lose situation for the rest of the players in that team. Either we can control the guy's units, dividing our focus into watching 2 heroes(wc3) , microing 2 different armies and macroing 2 different bases, Or we can just quit the match, rewarding us a instant loss instead of a slow loss.

Through your "i dont have to work in team-games" attitude you just cost several people a loss on ranked (in wc3~~) and time, just because you said you dont need to work in a teamgame?

with this mindset i could say that im just a casual gamer and i could go crush every 1 stripe players i can with smurfs since "i dont enjoy competitive play".

Sure it might not be fun for the newbies but hey who cares, i have my rights to do anything i want, and i dont want to play stressing games against decent players ~~

"it is not about the win or lose it is how you play the game"

And how you play the game doesnt affect winning or losing? ├âÔÇó,o


it seems you dont even want to see the game opting instead to see gundam as a hobby project, and watching those pretty explosions and gundams.

I play for fun but I still like to win and get annoyed if you have some snotty team member who doesn't contribute at all, plays like shit and whenever he's asked to do something will reply with something ridiculous about his amazing strategy and shit

hth

I generally play pretty well in team games, but half the time I'm not trying my hardest, just being a team member who helps their allies and spending time on various odd tactics. I have fun, I don't hurt the team, and I don't feel like I'm wasting my time just because I don't try my hardest to win. That's what being less competitive is about. It's neither better nor worse in a random players team game.

Sleksa wrote:

"it is not about the win or lose it is how you play the game"

And how you play the game doesn't affect winning or losing? ├âÔÇó,o

Of course it does sleksa. However you are missing the broader picture.

How you play the game affects your personal satisfaction with the game played.

I suppose the best way to explain that would be to refer to a game of Evolution 1v1 that me and daywalker played a week or two ago.

The entire game we were hammering each other pretty badly. Day prolly wasn't as good as he normally is because of unfamilarity, but vs a player of his skill it hardly matters. Eventually ofter a time I started getting fatigued and started making simple mistakes, as a result I lost the game.

Even though I lost the game it was a hell of a lot of fun though, because I played very very well, and as a result I was very satisfied with the way that the game turned out. Game lasted around 45 minutes I believe, which is really long for a 1v1 in Evolution.

I tend to agree with NT42... It's extremely disrespectful to manipulate an allies units without their consent, weather that is reclaiming or atlas carrying, or just dgunning and comm bombing. I have very little sympathy for the argument that it's "punishing them" for playing badly, unless it's simply retaliatory for them doing the same thing to you earlier. Honestly, I consider it a bug in the game, in my opinion it shouldn't even be possible to do, but it's difficult to remove too because allies should be able to cooberate on, for example, airdrop attacks, but there is no elegant method of allowing a unit to be ally pickupable or force it not to be only when the player wants it so.

Curse out players who don't play with the team, ban them from your games, complain about them to your friends, whatever. But in my opinion it's going too far to directly manipulate their units when they don't want you to.

Matt is absolutely right, a really bad player usually costs his team more than he contributes, and there are definitely cases where in a team game, using your allies units, either through reclaim or atlas, can mean the difference between victory and defeat, but as an admin, I have to prioritize the game environment for all players over the few players who absolutely must win every game at all costs.

In matches and tournies, sure, pick up your allies comm and do whatever you want with him, in the competitive environment you're directly accountable only for your win loss record and your friends opinion of you, but in the pubs certain standards of play need to be adhered to at all costs.

Yes, by picking you up and dropping you to the frontline. And you, as an inferior player, should go 'thank you for helping us win this game'.

Meh, I just lost all respect for you

Argh wrote:

Yes, by picking you up and dropping you to the frontline. And you, as an inferior player, should go 'thank you for helping us win this game'.

Meh, I just lost all respect for you

If it wasn't Matt who said it, it'd be sleksa, or day, or flop. It's the classic "play to win vs play for fun" scenario, and in that context Matt is absolutely right. The reality is though, not every player plays to win, and as a community we have to tailor to both types of players. If a play to win player doesn't have alot of skill at a game, but a good player is able to do something in the game that allows him to contribute beyond his own ability, then to a play to win player he has been issued an honor... even if it defys the common conceptions of "unit sovereignty" or other imaginary game rules. To the play to win player, winning is the whole point, so being indirectly manipulated is not a problem.

What I'm saying is, get over yourself. Matt's perspective is completely and totally understandable and rational, it's just not universal.

The whole team game drama is one of the main reasons why I'm mostly a modder now.

I like to win, but I also like not being insane.

What a bunch of whiney babies, boo hoo, he reclaimed my lab/stole my mex spots/combombed with my comm.

Sometimes you downright need to man the hell up and go reclaim crazy on some noobish ass who thinks 'DEPTHCHARRGE LAUNCHER R TEH AWESUM SPAEM!!1' as its the only way he's going to contribute.

I remember one 8v8 dsd (Please, cry less, DSD = POPULAR MAP) where we had four allies who weren't doing anything and only myself and another guy holding the basin, of course I reclaimed their labs and made a damn fine advance until the enemy t2 econ-spammed me back.

Truth of the matter is this, if you're doing jack, expect to lose your shit to an ally who knows his elbow from his asshole. Soviet that.

What does "play for fun" mean exactly, anyway? Playing for the pretty explosions?

KDR_11k wrote:What does "play for fun" mean exactly, anyway? Playing for the pretty explosions?

"I want to try using this unit this game", or "I wonder what would happen if I didn't build any attacking units" or even just generally playing the game without really any thought to how you can improve for next time or increase your performance. New players are forced into less structured play styles because they don't know better... but there's still a marked difference between someone who plays just screwing around and someone who observers other people's actions and strategies, and attempts to mimic them with the ultimate goal of being a good player.

Really, I guess "play for fun" isn't the best descriptor, people who play to win are playing for fun too, they just find it most fun when their winning. The idea is a type of play where victory as a goal is a low priority to the player, they are more interested in things like watching explotions, or seeing units work, or making pretty bases. As if they have a private victory condition they must meet, as opposed to the simple one the game imposes of beating your opponents.

KDR_11k wrote:What does "play for fun" mean exactly, anyway? Playing for the pretty explosions?

You should read Forb's post. He lost a fine 1v1, and still found it very entertaining.

Imo we need to rethink this competitive vs casual categorisation.

There could be purely competitive people, who get their fun when they realize they have beaten someone.

Some get their fun building nice looking bases and watching their enemies hopelessly die infront of their roflporc. That's purely casual.

There might also be players who play to win to the best of their ability, but ultimately don't care if they lose. The fun is in the interaction with the enemy. I think the majority of avarage to good players are like this, myself included.

PS. These are not strict categorisations either. It's a spectrum. It's always a spectrum when alot of individuals are involved.

There is no such thing as sovereignty of units. You just have your mouse, your keyboard and your balls. Thats it.