Spring RTS Engine

Gota wrote:What is that video?how is it relevant?look at it again,analyze what you see and what is happening.

What is happening is the Australian government softening their rhetoric because they realised today how upset the public were that they hung another Australian citizen out for the wolves. The US tortured the last Australian they considered an enemy.

Gota wrote:There is no room for comparison. The leaks hurt the US's foreign interests first and foremost, both on the level of actual personal that will have to be replaced, the political leverage that other countries will have cause their representatives and leaders were some what humiliated by these cables and all sorts of other diplomatic relations that are now hurt cause internal documents were released.

One of the leaks threatens our relationship with China. The guy in the video (our ex-PM, now Foreign Minister) suggested the US attack China if things "go wrong". The cables also say the US finds him erratic. If anyone can claim to have suffered from these leaks he's one of them yet there he is offering Julian support - like his job requires. He isn't raging to Bill O'reilly about why Julian must die. He's showing his US counterparts how to handle this event like a mature adult.

Gota wrote:It's strange to me why you'd use an Austrailan VS USA comparison when it comes ot free speech since it is Australia that is censuring it's citizen's interwebs.
Why don't you go rage over that some as well?

I have. But we aren't just talking about censorship here, we were talking about advocating killing and/or imprisoning a foreign journalist. It's Bush-era "Kill/torture everyone we don't like" all over again. THAT is the difference between the US and Australia right now.

Johannes wrote:Way to start article with such basic factual error, it's not criminal offense to publish this stuff... Just to leak it

Yeah, there is absolutely no connection...
Btw, what's it with your avatar?

hoijui wrote:

Martin Luther King Jr. 1967 wrote:...

if this guy would be around today, he would fully embrace Wikileaks and he would serve the US and the world a speech about the whole thing, that would let torben guys with none, not even the most ridiculous arguments.

Don't put words into a dead guy's mouth, you don't want to put yourself on a level with such a great man.

SpliFF wrote: The entire premise of the article that Wikileaks is an enemy of the US is easily negated by the simple fact that Wikileaks have previously leaked documents about other countries, including Americas' enemies.

Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikileaks
The things leaked NOT concerning the USA are on the Peru oil scandal, Nuclear accident in Iran (this one is so short, it's hard to consider it a real leak), Toxic dumping in Africa, Iceland bank scandal, BNP membership list, Australian Internet censorship lists and the Duisburg Love Parade documents.
(On that former Kenyan president: "Moi was constitutionally barred from running in the 2002 presidential elections.", five years before Wikileaks "leaked" anything...)
Nothing of this was a real problem for the government of the corresponding country.

On the other hand there is the Bank Julius Baer case, where Wikileaks even got backup from the _US_ justice system, Scientology, Climategate and Bilderberg Group meeting reports. Although all of them are linked to the USA, they aren't government issues.

But then there are Sarah Palin's emails (wtf?), Joint Services Protocols, 9/11 pager messages, Guantanamo, U.S. Intelligence report on WikiLeaks, Baghdad airstrike video, Afghan War Diary, Iraq War Logs and the diplomatic cables.

Could you please point me to any incident revealed there that showed a serious atrocity plotted by the US government? I could not see any indication that the US government is suppressing human rights in a systematic fashion. Guantanamo wasn't nice, but it's extent was ridiculous small on a global scale. And looking on civilian/combatant casual rates, the USA is doing almost as good as Israel, and way better than average rates in other conflicts.

So far Wikileaks has nine cases specifically on the government of the USA and eight cases on the rest of the world. Yeah, that makes sense... if you live in some kind of dream world were US feds are the bad guys and everyone else is good, except Israel, traditionally...

I have not heard about minorities being hunted down by the US government, free speech being limited, journalists detained or even killed.
But I see two German journalists sitting in Iran's prison.
I see women, gays, Non-Muslims in Islamic countries being denied human rights. Ever heard of pro-West Arab voices? No, because you'd be killed for that.
I see the former USSR, China, North Korea, Cuba or Venezuela and I am pretty sure there is not much to worry about in the USA. At least Wikileaks is proving that.

The most funny part is, I actually think something like Wikileaks is pretty vital for a democracy and was just looking at other opinions.
http://www.weltwoche.ch/ausgaben/2010-4 ... leaks.html is what I may have posted, too, if it were in English.

FireStorm_ wrote:I'll be more careful to not write "Americans" when I actually mean "American Government."

Correct, I have this issue with a lot of posters who act like Americans are the douchebags running our country. There is a growing group of disillusioned Americans who are realizing that we do not in fact have any control over where our country is going. It started with bush and continues with obama. Last election we had a choice between mcain and his battshit crazy sidekick or obama and his corupt as fuck wingman. We don't pick the people running, we just try to vote for the one that is less of a fucking cartoon than the other guy. Why did bush get elected 2 times? because J kerry had a platform of being "not bush" which was fucking retarded and didn't address any issues really.

The american people are stuck on a cruiseship with questionable food with tickets to a location we don't even want to go to. If any of you believe we are all the sort of anti-semetic religious nutjobs we are portrayed as you are a bigot. If you think teaparty people are our majority the same and if you think that any of us like that our governement is playing team america world police while pissing the future of our children and our childrens children away is something we are cool with, WOW.

ffs they are shutting down nasa while they spend BILLIONS to go kill people who honestly will just kill each other if left alone.

Before 'cablegate', wikileaks hosted over 20,000 documents. The wikipedia list is only representative of those considered newsworthy by English speaking readers and picked up by the mainstream press. Of those you have highlighted, 4 of the US ones are presumably the same leak. If there appears to be a bias towards the US I suspect you'll find that's only because that's what English readers are interested in and because the leaks are so explosive. There is not to my knowledge any footage of Arabian helicopters mowing down journalists but if there was I'm quite certain you'd find it on wikileaks first.

Also, well said smoth. Ultimately though the problem boils down to "US" being a 2 letter word while "American Government" or even more accurately "Executive Branch of the Government of the United States of America" are just a fucking mouthful. Also I don't think it's unreasonable for Americans (citizens) to cop some of the blame. You had a chance to pick Al Gore, or even Ron Paul or that Ralph Nader guy but you apparently decided a Texan idiot was a better representative.

I WAS a gore supporter.

I'm not surprised, though I hope you realise I meant "you" as in "you americans", not you personally. Either way I sympathise.

SpliFF wrote:There is not to my knowledge any footage of Arabian helicopters mowing down journalists but if there was I'm quite certain you'd find it on wikileaks first.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K15rxmU6oFY
Remember?

t0rb3n wrote:

hoijui wrote:

Martin Luther King Jr. 1967 wrote:...

if this guy would be around today, he would fully embrace Wikileaks and he would serve the US and the world a speech about the whole thing, that would let torben guys with none, not even the most ridiculous arguments.

Don't put words into a dead guy's mouth, you don't want to put yourself on a level with such a great man.

did you read or listened to the speech i linked? it is practically a pro wikileaks speech. saying he would have the same stand like me is not putting me on the same level, but rather putting me on the same side.

arguing that the US (gov) is not bad, because there are worse - whether that is true or not - is ...
you might want to over-think that.

t0rb3n wrote:I have not heard about minorities being hunted down by the US government ...

.. again, listen to the MLK speech.

t0rb3n wrote:... free speech being limited ...

they are attacking wikileaks ...

t0rb3n wrote:... journalists detained or even killed.

see Collateral Murder?

If you have not heard about it, is it cause it did not happen, or cause you just did not hear about it?
as the killing journalists/Collateral Murder case shows, it might be the second. :/

wikileaks is here to show the bad stuff that is done by.. whoever. those who attack it do so, because they have more to hide then was revealed. it has to be revealed, cause democracy can not work without that. this is more important then the business of some diplomats. democracy != the right to vote.
listen to the JFK speech.

it appears to me, as if you do talk about it, but you do not actually consume any of the content at stake, which makes your talking hollow.

about planes in tower...
yeah.. i can see the Arabs on the windows of this plane there, just before it hits... black beard hair pressing against the glass.
or do you want to remind us on the big, cheap, detesting, ... propaganda war after that event?

To me, and I hope I will not be tempted to say more about it, the events of 9-11 2001 are the result of, and caused more confusion of, religion with politics. I have often been told to try to keep those two separate.

When I saw this movie, I felt it could be a fair explanation of why this confusion began in the first place.
Movies are often strongly romanised, but still...
Anyway it starts with choppers mowing people down...perhaps Ironic.

I watched the helicopter video and it was not like "Oh look, journalists, lets kill them." We're talking about an isolated accident, not systematically hunting down the media.
The fact that Assange is still alive and free proves how high the tolerance level of the US government is. And should be, as established by their own justice system.

DoS attacks on a website... its like kids throwing water balloons, not an attack on the free press, but this is.

hoijui wrote: arguing that the US (gov) is not bad, because there are worse - whether that is true or not - is ...
you might want to over-think that.

No, I argue that the USA as a free, democratic country respecting human rights are a good thing. And because of that, I wonder why Wikileaks (or should I say Assange?) chooses to publish so much US related stuff.

hoijui wrote:

t0rb3n wrote:I have not heard about minorities being hunted down by the US government ...

.. again, listen to the MLK speech.

C'mon, its not the fifties anymore.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_Rights_Act_of_1964 wrote: Prohibited state and municipal governments from denying access to public facilities on grounds of race, religion, gender, or ethnicity.

hoijui wrote: about planes in tower...
yeah.. i can see the Arabs on the windows of this plane there, just before it hits... black beard hair pressing against the glass.
or do you want to remind us on the big, cheap, detesting, ... propaganda war after that event?

You mean like http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiKyWJRRjnU , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8CvDI1da4g or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLVtaJ-OpV8 ?
No, I guess not.

Don't get me wrong, the USA are not gods angel, but they are far away from being a villain to human society.

edit: corrected quotes, thanks hoijui

you just dropped to a level of stupidity where arguments just do not make sense anymore.
side note, you actually quoted hoijui, not smoth there, in all 3 cases.

one more for the ignore list.

Sometimes it's just too easy.

t0rb3n wrote:

Johannes wrote:Way to start article with such basic factual error, it's not criminal offense to publish this stuff... Just to leak it

Yeah, there is absolutely no connection...
Btw, what's it with your avatar?

What? It's not illegal to publish secret info someone else leaked for you. It's simple as that or why is not Wikileaks, or anyone who copied the stuff they release, sued anywhere?


And what's with my avatar, well you tell me

Fun with Facts: http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/41990.html

SpliFF wrote: Unfortunately it won't conflict with any amendments because, as people need to be constantly reminded, Julian is not an American.

interesting. US laws dont apply to Foreign people on US soil? Or does the amendment (man's rights etc) only concern US citizens? And why would the swedes then turn assange over (if he gets transferred to sweden) to the US? confusing ~_~

I have to admit that i was wrong about the stuff being leaked being barely newsworthy though. There seems to be a lot of interesting stuff

such as shell basically running nigeria

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010 ... ria-spying

or ÔÇó America asked Uganda to let it know if its army intended to commit war crimes based on US intelligence ÔÇô but did not try to prevent war crimes taking place.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/de ... war-crimes



also

Oh...silliness...wtf is this forum?the liberal/communist/socialist/relativist hub?

Best quote of the day.

herp derp

SpliFF wrote:You had a chance to pick Al Gore, or even Ron Paul or that Ralph Nader guy but you apparently decided a Texan idiot was a better representative.

Al Gore was an idiot and portrayed himself like a shyster lawyer, Nader was... lolnader. Ron Paul was... well he has some good ideas, on other parts he's way out in center field but whatever, I wouldn't have been upset if he had been elected.

But who got elected this last time around? A shyster lawyer. Now that's irony for you

You're saying that the Texan idiot is better than Al Gore, Ron Paul and Ralph Nader?

Hoi wrote:You're saying that the Texan idiot is better than Al Gore, Ron Paul and Ralph Nader?

Where did I ever say that? Stop putting words in my mouth, you do that in every discussion, so piss off. Also, he wasn't an idiot, but just cause you're intelligent doesn't mean that you always make the right choices. Look at Barak Obama. Very very intelligent, just doesn't know how to put it to good use, which is a damn shame.

I liked ron paul, but I don't agree with his isolationist views. Ideally, yes, we could just keep to ourselves and tell the rest of the world to fuck off and handle itself, but imagine the outrage if we did that. That was what ron paul wanted to do.

If you brush up on your history, the US kept to itself up until Pearl Harbor was bombed, at which point, the US learned a very bitter lesson about isolationism.