Spring RTS Engine

DZHIBRISH wrote:ffs all im saying make t2 arty cost 400 metal instead of 250...

That's a huge change. How about hell no. Stop porcing into late T2 and arty won't seem as huge a problem.

There is no T2 arty that is any more than a minor nuisance to the T2 combat units. T2 arty can't kite, it doesn't shoot backwards and it's slower than almost every attack unit.

Artil is very very well balanced in this mod, please talk about something else...

Apparently, the Catalyst is cheaper in-game than the Punisher. Funny, as it has much more range and damage.

neddiedrow wrote:Apparently, the Catalyst is cheaper in-game than the Punisher. Funny, as it has much more range and damage.

Hehe someone is forgeting 78927 BT cost (guardin 20000) and HUGE 1000 metal cost per rocket. This mean i can waste 2k m to kill 1 plant that costs 3k m. (and plant can be rezzed for allmost no cost)

This unit is just ok.. nothing special at all.

ginekolog wrote: Hehe someone is forgeting 78927 BT cost (guardin 20000) and HUGE 1000 metal cost per rocket. This mean i can waste 2k m to kill 1 plant that costs 3k m. (and plant can be rezzed for allmost no cost)

This unit is just ok.. nothing special at all.

What this man says. The catalyst is cheaper, but you stick one rocket in it an its already more expensive. With this thing, you are lucky to even be able to make back its cost for the price of the damn ammo. I mean, you need 2 missiles to kill a antinuke- thats the same metal cost as the antinuke! If he repairs it in between, you'll never kill it.

Against a viper, it takes 3 missiles popped down or 2 popped up- yet a viper is about the cost of 1 missile.

Its only advantage is when you hit something real important- like his econ, some vital structure before an assault, or his only antinuke (twice...). In a war of attrition though, its pretty hard for this thing to make a difference. The only reason this thing seems attractive is that at t2 its so hard to actually make your attacks count that being able to killl his defenses with 2x the cost and leave no wreckage (that is, none of your wreckage) suddenly seems very attractive compared to having to overpower them with a massive force and leaving 60% of it behind for him to turn into units.

But then, if you spam these thing in attrition wars, good luck using them when he counter attacks. Thats something else MRPC's can do that these cant.

To address another issue, MRPC's are excellent at keeping enemy t2 arty at bay, BTW- as are Annis. Popups also have a 1/2 damage mod as well, so it takes ages for arty to dislodge them. (esp with a nanoturret on patrol- always use nanos on patrol vs bombardment). Shields, of course, also make you immune to t2 arty- but this is often doin it wrong.

What t2 arty is really good at is being a cheap way to dislodge a t1 porc (though, if he has an MRPC, it gets slightly more difficult). When you just teched and dont have a moho economy, mix in t2 arty with your t1 army and you can start making some progress against the enemy porc again. Once he has popups and annis/MRPC's/etc though, forget it. You are in for the long, slow, porc and these things wont help you. They cost about 50% more than a stumpy, and have a third the hp- too fragile to last long enough to make an impact.

If anything, the dippy is UP, not the luger OP. I know ive argued the opposite point, but the luger/pillagers been buffed a fair bit since then. But then the whole of t2 is pretty broken anyway.

The catalyst is highly, highly special purpose. Even where i've built it, ive needed to spam it

personally i think it would be interesting if it had special damage v ships

Saktoth: The advantage is that it destroys exactly what you want to destroy with 100% reliability. Yup, the missles cost alot more than popups, but if the popup suddenly vanishes at the point when 15 goli rush the base, along with a big group of T1's and an anni, all of a sudden the damage potential of the goli is massive compared to what it would have been if those structures were up. The payoff of expensive cat missles is that they surgically remove exactly what you want to, giving you control over the pacing game and forcing your opponent to struggle to match your moves whereas without the catalyst the battleground would be much more two sided.

Catalysts give you the option of making your opponents front line defenses disappear one after another, and forcing your opponents to stock their fronts with vulnerable cons to keep up with the pace of destruction so your attacks don't overwhelm.

Basically the #1 thing they cost your opponent is the ability to minimize build time.

SwiftSpear wrote:Yup, the missles cost alot more than popups, but if the popup suddenly vanishes at the point when 15 goli rush the base, along with a big group of T1's and an anni, all of a sudden the damage potential of the goli is massive compared to what it would have been if those structures were up.

Well as I already said: Why do you complain about the Catalyst here and not about the Detonator too? Because with Arms Detonator you could disable his whole defenses with just two or three rockets and not dozens of Catalyst missiles. Your 15 Goliaths will get rid of the shut down buildings in no time. I think it's strange that there come up complaints about the new Catalyst but everyone seems to be fine with the Detonator though its potential is a lot higher...

[Krogoth86] wrote:

SwiftSpear wrote:Yup, the missles cost alot more than popups, but if the popup suddenly vanishes at the point when 15 goli rush the base, along with a big group of T1's and an anni, all of a sudden the damage potential of the goli is massive compared to what it would have been if those structures were up.

Well as I already said: Why do you complain about the Catalyst here and not about the Detonator too? Because with Arms Detonator you could disable his whole defenses with just two or three rockets and not dozens of Catalyst missiles. Your 15 Goliaths will get rid of the shut down buildings in no time. I think it's strange that there come up complaints about the new Catalyst but everyone seems to be fine with the Detonator though its potential is a lot higher...

YES, for assult on defences detonator ROX so much more. Actually imo detonator is much bettern than cata overall.

ginekolog wrote: YES, for assult on defences detonator ROX so much more. Actually imo detonator is much bettern than cata overall.

no kidding

antinuke pwnage

I think the catalyst can certainly give you a tactical advantage and allow you to make progress against an entrenched enemy- but it is not in the slightest bit cost-efficient, and the build time on the structures themselves and the missiles is so large that it takes quite a lot of time to overcome an entrenched enemy

I suppose a t2 economy is so obscene, and t2 defense so powerful, that you arent really looking for cost-effectiveness anymore and just want to use something (anything!) that can actually damage your enemy.

CautionToTheWind wrote:I think removing flares is a mistake, as it diminishes the game just to make modding it easier.

Flares are not random, not any more random than a hammer shot hitting or missing a moving target. The planes that had them were carefully restricted to those that needed them and where it made sense, such as scouts and lvl 2 fighters.

Now that i think of it a bit, this is by far the biggest mistake ever done in BA.

*****
Yes... I have the same opinion.
level 2 Scouts are at least in need of flares, and it is not a problem that they maybe live to long (50% whatever), because they do not have weapons anyway. They do not harm anything.

realBonk wrote:

CautionToTheWind wrote:I think removing flares is a mistake, as it diminishes the game just to make modding it easier.

Flares are not random, not any more random than a hammer shot hitting or missing a moving target. The planes that had them were carefully restricted to those that needed them and where it made sense, such as scouts and lvl 2 fighters.

Now that i think of it a bit, this is by far the biggest mistake ever done in BA.

*****
Yes... I have the same opinion.
level 2 Scouts are at least in need of flares, and it is not a problem that they maybe live to long (50% whatever), because they do not have weapons anyway. They do not harm anything.

1)fly radar plane next to windfarm/mmaker farm
2) ctrl+d
3) watch the enemy go "wtf"
4) ???
5) profit

neddiedrow wrote:Either way, I'll upgrade or replace my bloody mexes.

I like upgrading my mexes by myself... and it is interesting to see an enemy "mexes-way" a sort of "track", "railroad" whatever... I mean U can actually see the way an enemy "mex t2 builder" was coming from and find a way to see the possible place where the enemy t2 factoy is (to kill it).... I mean where it comes from (super bad english)

Cata has one remarkable advantage over detonator. The ability to remove any and all con support from an area. With 3 or more active cata plants you can no longer heal buildings as they are being pounded because the next missile will just come along and clear out any con near by. Especially true of nanofarms, which take a long time to replace and never get less vulnerable to the catalyst.

While the detonator has a clear advantage in prepping a strong line for a well microed and coordinated fast arm attack strike, it can't remove background base functionality the way the catalyst can. Which in the long run causes the catalyst missle's value to never really decrease, while the detonator becomes increasingly hard to use effectively as defense lines spread out and begin to consist more of lightly packed high damage mobile units than of obvious target statics.

Well said. People are missing the point of the cruise missile thing. It's for hitting "soft" targets that are otherwise utterly unreachable. It's not a porkbreaker, it's a deep-strike, like bombers.

Sleksa wrote: 1)fly radar plane next to windfarm/mmaker farm
2) ctrl+d
3) watch the enemy go "wtf"
4) ???
5) profit

Rarelly a day goes by where i don't see this abused.

OTA peeperbombing was the shit.

CautionToTheWind wrote:

Sleksa wrote: 1)fly radar plane next to windfarm/mmaker farm
2) ctrl+d
3) watch the enemy go "wtf"
4) ???
5) profit

ok...
radar plane can go "BOOM" and starts the chain explosion...
I forgot about that. Good point. Why are radar planes so explosive anyway ...because of the masses of explosive flares *kidding*

I like my killed Bombers flying "kamikaze" into enemy farms

wait, isnt that a fault with the radar plane rather than flares?