Spring RTS Engine

AA simply needs to be reworked and find it's ota roots again. There are many differences between ota and spring, but that does not mean that it cannot be replicated well.

AA is just... bleh. It was fun back in the day, but now it's just gone retarded. Sad but true.

Egarwaen wrote: Except you're wrong. It's more expensive, it's more fragile, and it's barely faster than a Sumo.

[...]

You shouldn't get Fusion Farms on any sane map. If you do... Bomber time!

#1, mobile bertha, I know its more espensive, it makes sense to make it that way... but its sooo sooo soooooo much more effective since it can move with an army, move when spotted by peepers, etc. its well worth the extra 10-15% to spend to make a mobile one... LRPC's, should never be mounted on tanks or boats, or anything mobile... the ONLY exception I could see, would be a railway cannon type gun... but that would be challenging to implement, code, and put in the game..

#2, Fusion Farms... that was how it had ALWAYS been done, and they were ALWAYS vulnerable to bombers... the new "uber" powerplants... have shields, cloak, etc... are smaller in numbers.. don't chain react into domino type effect detonations.. etc. not to mention you need only about 1/10th the land sq. footage, acreage, elmoage, kilometerage whatever, space.. to build them in effectively. and since they can be built in a more concentrated area, you can get layers of overlapping anti-air, anti-nuke, and anti-tank defense stacked up, and guard it to the teeth.... it actually ruins some of the strategy of:

a- (defense) "defend the front door with the army and hope he leaves the power in the back alone and leave it only defended by flak?? or let the towers defend the front, and guard my resources, my lifeline, with the army and run to the front door if needed.."

and then throws out some of the more interesting offensive options..

b- (offense) "well.. if I sneak an army of amphibious tanks and hovercraft upside the hill and fire on the last fusion on the farm.. it'll draw a huge chunk of his army though his fusions (bombs).. then I bomb them.. the fusions with aircraft or nukes, and let the fusions blow up MOST of his units in the process, not to mention strip him of the VITAL power he needs to fire his weapons.., and then run my main army in the front door..."

thats a planned, coordinated, well thought out, attack....

but when you can settle them ALL by going, "I'll build (4) 5k+power fusions in a square, defend them on the 1 side by both the army and the towers... build a wall of un-moveable dragons teeth, walls, etc on the back.. and just move foward with bertha cannons on tracks til he's dead.." it ruins some of the fun factor.... lol.. off topic kinda, but remember when they decided to put an annihilator cannon on the alien fusions? lolololol.... they were forward annihilators, with shields, cloaking, infinate tracking speed, fast refire, blew up like nukes, and on top of ALL THAT, gave 5,000 energy... lol

but again, with the bertha cannons... they blow up BIG when they die, the tanks.. really don't... the other part was, well... the bertha cannon is a TARGET for the enemy.. I can "intimidate" him into bull-charging it.. (leave a hole in the main defense line, in front of the bertha/intimidator and put about 4 sumos on each side of the hole.. LET him walk through the hole, let him fire on the bertha, while he's firing move the sumos to fill the hole on the d-line and trap his army INSIDE a catch-net of defensive crap.... then let him kill the LRPC and run any defense near it away, thus stunting his army's advance cause a big chunk will die with the LRPC's explosion, and moving the small defensive force back on him as he tries to retreat through the sumo line...... and using my main army to counter attack soon after...

that theory is gone with mobiles... simply because, a- nobody tries to run an army at one... it moves.... and walks them into an obvious trap... and die too easily to aircraft... and they don't blow everything up like a real LRPC.

I've got LOTS of old strategy I've tried to use on the "NEW" spring TA... AA... and most of its mods... but none of it works...

why?

all the units and mods have been tailored to the PowerGamer, the brute force method.

The only other person I've ever seen REALLY attempt a completely different style of gameplay.. yer all gonna hate this.. was min3mat.
his methods were not very skilled, no. He couldn't out resource you, no.
but he could win with level 1 almost every time, because he kept you on your toes..

(note this would never work in REAL OTA cause of his exploit of the auto-repair of Spring...) He would push hundreds of level 1 units as fast as he could on HUGE patrol patterns all over your side of the map, everywhere, and knew that the arm tanks flashes etc. could out-run core... and when they out ran them, after a small period ~10 seconds, they would start to heal, and within about ~10 more, WOULD be healed, and return to fight, full hitpoints.. with no micro-management on his part... theinitial first attack, he would guard over himself and not let his tanks die to your commander d-gun, but firing the d-gun was your ultimate downfall... it took all of your energy, and early on (late game too) energy is very important... thus stunting any kinda early game production you might have, and giving him the upper hand, wether he killed your metal income, factory, or powerplants... he did perfect that strategy.. and it did work. I'll give him that. He beat me with it 4 games in a row on both TA Spring's OTA, XTA, and AA v 1.2x

but alas, lately... I dunno... I've just seen too many people go.. "such and such strategy beats me bla bla bla" and then say "make xx unit so it can counter it".. and its done.. then there is 1 less strategy in the game... then the other guy does the same, minus another strategy...

around AA 1.4 or so, alot of people were talking "paper/rock/scissors" as 3 options to fight, "k-bot/tank/air" namely because each class of unit could do everything, LRPC, anti-air, ECM type attacks, brute force, L1, L2, and L3 units.. etc.. ...

now.. to fight the strategy seems to be a mix of them all (k-bot/tank/air) sure thats good.... and but dwindled to 2 options.. "cheap or powergamer" with cheap being re-claim the commy, com-bombing, nuking, LRPC rushing, etc. and power-gaming being porcing like a madman with 5k resource machines, gobs of construction everything, radar jammers, and LRPC hell.. sigh... its like punching a punching bag full of nails without gloves... the only way to beat it, if not join it, is to be cheap, and get a baseball bat.

when TA was played back in my day with the old skool software rendered graphics on <500 mhz machines.... 1997-2001, yeah, it was hella crazy fun, you never knew ANYTHING about what your opponent would do, how he would fight, or how to counter it... the options were endless...


--------------------------------------

to sum all of that^ book up.... I simply think:

AA has pushed the limits TOO far, to TOO many extremes.. making a multi-strategy game, a blur of 2 underlying options...

the only way I see to fix it...

1- remove all the "extra" technology stuff (repulser towers [.. these might be fun to see in a different scenario though], jammers, mobile LRPC, and the ilk...

2- tone down the EXTREMES of Level 1, 2, and 3 differences... and only reduce the costs about half as much as the nerf bat reduction...

I.E.
make level 1 tanks like they used to be, annoying. costs the same.
level 2 more powerful slower... but not MUCH better than level 1,
say, 1 level 2 can kill ~2-3 level 1's on average... costs 4-6x level 1
level 3 the biggest and the baddest yes.. but not gods.. (yes I would even nerf kroggy)
say 1 level 3 can kill ~3-4 level 2's or 8-12 level 1's... costs 5-10x of level 2

then, you'd see these armies of units running at eachother with the level 1's level 2's and level 3's sharing the battlefiled, and all having their purpose...

when the armies hit eachother and fought... rubble would pile up everywhere, things like bulldogs would have more use cause there is hoards of rubble to crush, etc... and not just for 1 unit....

the other thing that would happen... since defenses aren't uber on the field.. and you can't defend the huge farm of fusions with 1 defensive choke point... multiple front attacks (strategy! OH NOES!)... more than 1 army running around? ahhh too much!.... (scarcasim...)

I've tried to offer my advice on how to "better" the gaming expirence on many different games, many different mods, on many different occasions..
Battlezone 1 and 2, TA, Warcraft 1, Warcraft 2, Warhammer 40k, Freelancer, Quake, Quake2, Doom, Hexen, Heretic, Hexen2, Space Empires, Glactic Civlizations, Master of Magic, Red Alert, Red Alert 2, Counterstrike, Gloom, Empire Earth, Dungeon Siege, Civilization, EVE, Krush Kill n' Destroy (KKND), MW2, MW3, MW4, netmech, Simcity, god the list never ends... (and these are JUST some of the games after ~1995) I could list games for like... I dunno, months... I've played thousands of games, and helped or at least, attempted to mod or create levels, mosters, enemies for nearly them all...
and every time I try to offer my input, there are a few people who hear me, kixxie for example... but the majority of the community is hard-headed, and stubborn, and dosen't listen... sigh... I dunno... I'm not gonna care a lick if you ignore my suggestions, or take them 100% and follow them... hell... I don't even care if you consider them or just blow me off... its happened probably ~200+ times in the last 10 years.. and I've gotten used to it..

I'm just gonna end with... I've tried to help. I may be a little "behind" on the current AA release, and whining in general... but I'm trying to help. thats all. take it how you will, use it how you will... I'm gonna go make some features or maybe go play EE or Oblivion.

Why would anybody want to build L2s if they were less cost effective than L1s on top of requiring an expensive factory?

The LRPC on the sea isn't really that much better than regular ship cannons already are, sure it has more range but I think most L2 ships have a better damage throughput and don't need to move that much closer than the LRPC ships, in addition to having better armor and direct combat ability. Ships are insanely powerful, the LRPC doesn't change much there.

Those mega fusions aren't just powerful, they are freaking expensive. If you can afford a cluster of four of them you could have used those ressources to build an army and obliterate your opponent instead, two Orcones cost about the same (200k energy more but if you're building Orcones you probably have E to spare) as four mega fusions and are built in half the time. Smaller fusions may not have the same output and take more space but you can get one much faster (still pretty costy, though) and as such will produce energy much earlier than the mega fusion.

Also note that many of your complaints are aimed at earlier versions of AA (e.g. the ressource center).

I understand your points... but you have got to think "out of the box" and not literally # to # comparisons...

understand: a bigger more powerful unit has MANY more options than shear firepower..
a- a weapontype not avaliable to the lower
b- longer range
c- concentrated firepower compared to lower level
d- splash damage survivability

a unit, or units that are tougher by X points are X^Y points more powerful in the field... if you consider it a mathematical equation, you have to understand its exponential.. and you can't scale costs "exponentially" but you can get them relatively close...

Example: (arbitrary)

Reg. Tank:
cost = 60 metal 400 energy
damage output = 50 points / second
cost to damage ratio = 1.2 metal - 8 energy (smaller is better)

Medium Tank:
cost = 300 metal 2000 energy
damage output = 120 points / second
cost to damage ratio = 2.5 metal - 16.67 energy (smaller is better)

Heavy Tank:
cost = 2400 metal 16000 energy
damage output = 420 points / second
cost to damage ratio = 5.7 metal - 38.1 energy (smaller is better)

now on paper:
The Medium tanks are roughly 2 times less cost effective than level 1's but have heavier splash damage bonuses, range bonuses, etc. meaning, you can't ignore level 1 anymore.. THEY ARE STILL USEFUL! but alas, an equal cost army of level 1's versus an equal cost army of level 1's with BALANCED level 2's will always lose to the balanced mix. since the effectiveness of level 2's is roughly 2 times less cost effective, you need X^Y units to balance (the X variable is the cost effectiveness of the unit compared to the other, and the the Y exponent is a variable depending on how effective the "extra" range is etc. )
to simplify things... I'm going to use a variable of 2 for the exponent. (a more realistic would be approx ~2.5562 or some other number, but I would guess closer to 3 than 2)
so our formula would be:

for every 100 regular tanks, you would need 100/(2^2) medium tanks
meaning = 100 regular 25 medium

the heavy is ~5 times less cost effective than the level 1's..
what that means? you need roughly 5^2 times level 1's to each level 3 to make them cost effective

for every 100 regular tanks, you would need 100/(5^2) heavy tanks + (the mediums)
meaning = 100 regular + 25 medium + 4 heavy


in a Linear fashion... cost = cost comparison.. you could spend the same resources and get 100 + 125 + 160 tanks.. (385) regular tanks...
the numbers are:

385 reg * 50 damage / second = 19,250 damage per second total

vs. the balanced army

100*50 + 25*120 + 4*420 = 9,680 damage per second total...

CLEARLY in a linear scale, they are VERY out of balance.. but I assure you, placed on the battlefield, the balanced army will win. (given the ^Y scale in the equation is correct )

anyone but me ever consider mathematically using exponents to balance armies? or am I the first?

but I hope you can see where I'm coming from when I make them EXPONENTIALLY more expensive...

otherwise... the "bigger" linearally scaled in cost, level 2 unit will ALWAYS be a better buy than the level 1 equivilant of tanks, and the level 3 will ALWAYS be better than the linear equivilant of cost of level 2's...

meaning, once you tech up, the lower tech is wasted.

take solar panels for example...

50 solar panels are cheap, and produce energy at approx the same rate as fusions.... but take up SOOOOOOOOO much space, they aren't cost effective, namely cause they cost too much to defend...

if you made the fusion EXPONENTIALLY more expensive... then the solars would have MUCH more reason to be built. but fusions, would STILL be needed because there IS STILL A REACABLE LIMIT of groundspace to build FARMS of solars or wind generators... same goes for alien tech... but if I was to suggest making the alien tech nuke reactor say, 150 times more expensive... I'd get flamed in a hearbeat... but nobody thinks in exponents.... even if they make a better game...

guys...AA is not OTA- it shouldn't have the exact same balance as OTA, it has its own different balance. OTA tactics in AA will work just as well as AA tactics in supcom- they may be based around the same thing, but they're different games, they have different balance and if you expect tactics to work just as well in a sequel to a game:

1. The game would be very boring (it is basically the exact same game)

2. You're very boring (why would you want to play a new game with the same balance and gameplay as the old - it's like buying a new different cheese and expecting it to taste exactly the same as the old cheese (you'll never get edam to taste like cheddar i'm afraid))

3. Nobody else but the "oldschool elite players" will agree with you, because believe it or not, most people want to see something new and don't want to be disadvantaged massively because they didn't play OTA and you did meaning you have 100s of hrs extra practice at doing something the "old way".


Just because something is different doesn't mean it is bad. I'm not seeing any actual balance issues being spouted at the moment, i'm seeing people complaining that AA isn't exactly like OTA and should adopt its balance, which is stupid because as harsh as this sounds- if you want a carbon copy game of OTA, play OTA.




p.s. nerf mav dmg!

Forboding Angel wrote:AA simply needs to be reworked and find it's ota roots again. There are many differences between ota and spring, but that does not mean that it cannot be replicated well.

AA is just... bleh. It was fun back in the day, but now it's just gone retarded. Sad but true.

Forboding, just get out of the AA thread, we know you don't like it and it doesn't like you, just give it up.
I dont go around posting stuff like this in the EE or XTA thread.

BoredJoe wrote:guys...AA is not OTA- it shouldn't have the exact same balance as OTA, it has its own different balance. OTA tactics in AA will work just as well as AA tactics in supcom- they may be based around the same thing, but they're different games, they have different balance and if you expect tactics to work just as well in a sequel to a game:

1. The game would be very boring (it is basically the exact same game)

2. You're very boring (why would you want to play a new game with the same balance and gameplay as the old - it's like buying a new different cheese and expecting it to taste exactly the same as the old cheese (you'll never get edam to taste like cheddar i'm afraid))

3. Nobody else but the "oldschool elite players" will agree with you, because believe it or not, most people want to see something new and don't want to be disadvantaged massively because they didn't play OTA and you did meaning you have 100s of hrs extra practice at doing something the "old way".


Just because something is different doesn't mean it is bad. I'm not seeing any actual balance issues being spouted at the moment, i'm seeing people complaining that AA isn't exactly like OTA and should adopt its balance, which is stupid because as harsh as this sounds- if you want a carbon copy game of OTA, play OTA.




p.s. nerf mav dmg!

are you TRYING to piss me off?

AA isn't a new game.

its an expansion to OTA.

and frankly... it raped the balance of OTA and molested its children...

I've given up trying to REVERT AA back to what it was intended to be back in 1999... and you are ignorant, probably 15, only been playin Spring for a grand total of 5 months maybe.. not to mention a pirate (you don't own TA and TA:CC do you?) and well... just want to be "cool" to insult me or to tell me to shut up... well if you would grow up, pretend to have a brain in your head, and maturely understand what I'm TRYING to do,... is to help make AA more "fun" and less "2 option" fighting...

if you read the majority of my posts... rather than skim the start and finish and rally and join hands with the other hard-headed "go away" fanboys... you'd see my point.

you've graduated to my "I really don't care about him" list....

LathanStanley wrote:

BoredJoe wrote:guys...AA is not OTA- it shouldn't have the exact same balance as OTA, it has its own different balance. OTA tactics in AA will work just as well as AA tactics in supcom- they may be based around the same thing, but they're different games, they have different balance and if you expect tactics to work just as well in a sequel to a game:

1. The game would be very boring (it is basically the exact same game)

2. You're very boring (why would you want to play a new game with the same balance and gameplay as the old - it's like buying a new different cheese and expecting it to taste exactly the same as the old cheese (you'll never get edam to taste like cheddar i'm afraid))

3. Nobody else but the "oldschool elite players" will agree with you, because believe it or not, most people want to see something new and don't want to be disadvantaged massively because they didn't play OTA and you did meaning you have 100s of hrs extra practice at doing something the "old way".


Just because something is different doesn't mean it is bad. I'm not seeing any actual balance issues being spouted at the moment, i'm seeing people complaining that AA isn't exactly like OTA and should adopt its balance, which is stupid because as harsh as this sounds- if you want a carbon copy game of OTA, play OTA.




p.s. nerf mav dmg!

are you TRYING to piss me off?

AA isn't a new game.

its an expansion to OTA.

and frankly... it raped the balance of OTA and molested its children...

I've given up trying to REVERT AA back to what it was intended to be back in 1999... and you are ignorant, probably 15, only been playin Spring for a grand total of 5 months maybe.. not to mention a pirate (you don't own TA and TA:CC do you?) and well... just want to be "cool" to insult me or to tell me to shut up... well if you would grow up, pretend to have a brain in your head, and maturely understand what I'm TRYING to do,... is to help make AA more "fun" and less "2 option" fighting...

if you read the majority of my posts... rather than skim the start and finish and rally and join hands with the other hard-headed "go away" fanboys... you'd see my point.

you've graduated to my "I really don't care about him" list....

i'm not 15, i've played spring for longer than 5 months, i do own OTA, i know AA was an expansion to OTA and I didn't insult you once in my post (can't say the same for you, so i don't know how you claim to be the mature one with a brain). My points still stand.

I may have over-reacted... but the way you state things as "we" or "our community" and the like... place me as an outsider.. and frankly, I find it insulting.

and how can you "guarantee" that it will play just like supcom? supcom isn't even out.

and to your comment of "AA is a different game" ...

read this from the ORIGIONAL SITE OF AA!

http://aa.planetannihilation.gamespy.co ... mation.htm

What is Absolute Annihilation?

Absolute Annihilation (AA for short) is a new TA mod designed to pick up where Uberhack left off, adding tons of new content while still staying true to the original game. Hundreds of new and heavily modified units enhance the gameplay while not changing the game on such a fundamental level that it takes a long time to learn.

Among the most important changes are those to the resource system, with the addition of several new energy and metal production buildings for both Arm and Core. No 10,000 energy, 10,000 metal-producing "death star of teh rage and boom" that renders all previous buildings useless though.

In addition to the resource system changes, AA also features many visual enhancements, such as improved models, better textures, and new animation.

just because you don't know I helped beta test it 7 years ago, and know and have played almost every single damn version of it... don't put me off as ill-informed...

I know EXACTLY was AA was, is, and what it WAS intended to be...

you, are just typical and can't think "out of the box"... only BIG AND HUGE AND NEW mean anything to you type player... Sorry if that offends you.

Lathan, PLEASE pay attention to what people are saying to you - pretty much every point you've made is either totally irrelivent (AA isn't enough like OTA) or is of mediocre merit. Btw caydr has been using mathmatical formulae to redetermine costs for some units recently, but seeing as thats got something to do with RECENT versions of AA, i guess you wouldn't know about it now, would you?

AA is NOT OTA, why does it have to be faithful to its original incarnation? Clearly you haven't played any proper games recently, if you had, you'd see how rare these 'fusion farms' high tier (or any L3 infact) are and all the other crap you've been spurting out.

When you mention you've played OTA since it came out... well so have I, and countless others who play spring i should imagine - i'd play AA over it anyday. Going on about it, it just seems like you're trying to clutch for some credability for misinformed statesments/suggestions.

You lost to Min3mat several times in a row at DIFFRENT mods and still manage to make out hes not very good? Perhaps you should have realised you're not playing OTA rather than blaming 'faults' in AA.

LathanStanley wrote: you, are just typical and can't think "out of the box"

That's so hypocritical, you saying things like there should never be mobile lrpc's, sumo's should never attack and a lvl3 mech that can scale walls are unstopable no matter what, why? certainly if you were just playing ota these things would sound crazy but AA is way past that.
You're the one stuck in a box just trying to go back towards ota instead of going to something better.

Why does it matter what the original release was intended to be? This ISN'T the original AA release, it has evolved into something much, much better imo.

Deal with it, or go make a version true to the original or something..

LathanStanley wrote:I may have over-reacted... but the way you state things as "we" or "our community" and the like... place me as an outsider.. and frankly, I find it insulting.

and how can you "guarantee" that it will play just like supcom? supcom isn't even out.

and to your comment of "AA is a different game" ...

read this from the ORIGIONAL SITE OF AA!

http://aa.planetannihilation.gamespy.co ... mation.htm

What is Absolute Annihilation?

Absolute Annihilation (AA for short) is a new TA mod designed to pick up where Uberhack left off, adding tons of new content while still staying true to the original game. Hundreds of new and heavily modified units enhance the gameplay while not changing the game on such a fundamental level that it takes a long time to learn.

Among the most important changes are those to the resource system, with the addition of several new energy and metal production buildings for both Arm and Core. No 10,000 energy, 10,000 metal-producing "death star of teh rage and boom" that renders all previous buildings useless though.

In addition to the resource system changes, AA also features many visual enhancements, such as improved models, better textures, and new animation.

just because you don't know I helped beta test it 7 years ago, and know and have played almost every single damn version of it... don't put me off as ill-informed...

I know EXACTLY was AA was, is, and what it WAS intended to be...

you, are just typical and can't think "out of the box"... only BIG AND HUGE AND NEW mean anything to you... Sorry if that offends you.

i can guarantee you that supcom will be different because it has more factions, it uses a different game engine, it has different units, etc. But i'm sure it will also claim to have a "rooting in ota".

I know where you are coming from, however if you are modding a game, if you're not changing the game balance, what are you changing? a mod should change the gameplay significantly while still keeping the "roots from the original game" but there is always dispute as to how much from the original game you should keep. Compare C&C to OTA then compare AA to OTA and you can see there are still a lot of things rooted in OTA.

What it was is not what it is or is intended to be now. If you want Beta 7 play Beta 7. Don't run around crying how 2006's AA does not play like 1999's AA. If you want your old AA so badly feel free to fork your own from an earlier version.

Another thing - You claim everything in AA is brute force? I'll think you'll find there are a huge number of extra stealthy things you can do in AA over OTA, lets list some of them shall we?

CloakableSpy's
CloakableSnipers
Cloakable tanks
Cloakable cameras
Cloakable jammers
Cloaked fusions
Cloakable com bomb, kroggie dgunning com!

Snipers are also stealthy, as are both advanced fighters, pretty sure i've missed out quite a bit..

Edit: Scuttle ftw!

Cabbage wrote:Lathan, PLEASE pay attention to what people are saying to you - pretty much every point you've made is either totally irrelivent (AA isn't enough like OTA) or is of mediocre merit. Btw caydr has been using mathmatical formulae to redetermine costs for some units recently, but seeing as thats got something to do with RECENT versions of AA, i guess you wouldn't know about it now, would you?

AA is NOT OTA, why does it have to be faithful to its original incarnation? Clearly you haven't played any proper games recently, if you had, you'd see how rare these 'fusion farms' high tier (or any L3 infact) are and all the other crap you've been spurting out.

When you mention you've played OTA since it came out... well so have I, and countless others who play spring i should imagine - i'd play AA over it anyday. Going on about it, it just seems like you're trying to clutch for some credability for misinformed statesments/suggestions.

You lost to Min3mat several times in a row at DIFFRENT mods and still manage to make out hes not very good? Perhaps you should have realised you're not playing OTA rather than blaming 'faults' in AA.

many "points" I made were wrong.. I know this...

AA is OTA... well... was supposed to be.

I was discusing min3mat, not in a way to detrement or promote AA or claim to be a good or bad player... but rather as a player who had his "style" and it worked... it was different from the "porc or find a hax" issue..

Machiosabre wrote: That's so hypocritical, you saying things like there should never be mobile lrpc's, sumo's should never attack and a lvl3 mech that can scale walls are unstopable no matter what, why? certainly if you were just playing ota these things would sound crazy but AA is way past that.
You're the one stuck in a box just trying to go back towards ota instead of going to something better.

I'm not hypocritical.. I was relating back to my statement of Linear comarison of cost vs. damage to expionental comaprison of cost vs. damage...

What I'm saying isn't just to remove those units... what I'm saying is simply:
every unit as it is now, has the same function; build in a hoarde, and attack.

there are no primarially defensive units as much as there are primarially offensive units... all the units can be used in the same fashion wether it be offense or defense..

the only difference between the units is the type of fire, and how effective it is at countering a different unit.

that in itself, hurts gameplay.

granted you will tell me that LRPC tanks, and artillery are NOT attacking units or some crap, or that spy k-bots are different (just to be a smartass and try to dis-credit me more).... well.. THANK YOU MR. OBVIOUS!.... but.. "my point still stands" urgh....

and if Cadyr is working on scaling the cost of everything exponentially rather than linerally.. more power to him, and props to him for that... maybe we can see AA start to come back to where it should be...

the only thing left to do, is to specialize the units back to where everything can't kill anything in any scenario... but rather XX unit specializes on attacks uphill, XX specializes on chokepoints.. XX is defensive vs range, XX is defensive vs level 1 fast tanks/k-bots.. etc...

and pull off the god guns on god units... thats just... urgh.

Cabbage wrote:Another thing - You claim everything in AA is brute force? I'll think you'll find there are a huge number of extra stealthy things you can do in AA over OTA, lets list some of them shall we?

CloakableSpy's
CloakableSnipers
Cloakable tanks
Cloakable cameras
Cloakable jammers
Cloaked fusions
Cloakable com bomb, kroggie dgunning com!

Snipers are also stealthy, as are both advanced fighters, pretty sure i've missed out quite a bit..

Edit: Scuttle ftw!

snipers in the origional sense, and to defination, are SLOW, SLOW refire, POWERFUL shot, and VERY expensive...

the new version may be different... but the last time I played... I was charged by an ARMY of snipers by themselves.. they were fast, decient refire rate, long range, VERY powerful.. and somewhat tough...

you are gonna argue that they are specialized? hardly.

expensive, probably...

need a nerf bat, yep. (as of that version.)

edit:

snipers were in OTA, and did cloak,
cloaking fusions were in OTA
cloaking spys were in OTA
there were no cloaking tanks, but there were k-bots.. in OTA
and yes, the commander cloaked...

that leaves the camera, which I think is VERY cool
and the jammer.. which I think is overkill...

one unit in your list I have a problem with... and I'm not the only one with the same problem..

arn't any god units or god guns! Kroggies and Orchones suffer 3x damage to BLOD's! They can get Dugunned by coms, brawlered, swarmed by cheap units.... They are awful for attacking a well defended base. I can count the number of times i've seen them used in a proper game on one hand....

Please go play the lastest version, and not just once or twice, play lots of games against diffrent opponents, come play with steve, machio, myself etc.

Don't play speedmetal.... I'm sure you'll understand why everyone is being so hostile if you did this, please go have a week or so of playing proper games and then come back, you'll see why your posts are a bit silly...

They had the noexplode removed in a newer version because that tag was buggy, that amounts to a severe nerf.

EDIT: cabbage posted too fast, I was referring to snipers.

Cabbage wrote:arn't any god units or god guns! Kroggies and Orchones suffer 3x damage to BLOD's! They can get Dugunned by coms, brawlered, swarmed by cheap units.... They are awful for attacking a well defended base. I can count the number of times i've seen them used in a proper game on one hand....

So, this would make the lvl3 superunits horribly underpowered and pointless? They need a beef!