Spring RTS Engine

There should be a more elegant solution to this.
You can always assume the community is stupid and try to be a jerk in the space the mod allows them. (beautifully explained by Yahtzee in his Saints Row 2 review)
The bear hover transport isn't allowed to pick up enemy units anymore after people figured out it's an amazing machine of golly-or-comm-sucking-goodness. So it got fixed.

In this case it's a simple matter of lowering the hp of the atlas and make in impossible to pick up any units other then yours. (so Regret can stop wining). Also it's fair not to be allowed to pick up your comm with an atlas, make it so that you need a t2 air transport for it. This way you prevented to most abuse.

The whole AA vs Air (vs rest) balance is a more difficult matter.

my 2 cents of course

I like how people who I never see play BA have solutions to solve supposed problems in BA.

Zenka wrote:Also it's fair not to be allowed to pick up your comm with an atlas, make it so that you need a t2 air transport for it. This way you prevented to most abuse.

no fucking way, combomb is valid tactic, and without t1 atlas it wont work in most games (if you cant pick up enemy com with t1, you cant pick up own com either), since you combomb because you are already dead, which means you dont even have t2 air lab in most cases...

kbot con has half the HP of vehicle con
it is slower
it is roughly the same price and BT

pw/ak can just about stand upto flash/gator swarms for metal cost effectivenss, but for energy they cost 250% more.
they are also less effective at attacking llts due to low indivual hp
chain exploding
slow PW raising arm animation
pathetic ak hp (ak holds a middleground between scout/raider)
they have way high BT and E-costs compared to their cost in vehicles
since these units are the only units vaugely comparable to vehicle dps, this is pretty harsh

the ba philosophy of "kbots are weaker because they go go up hill" is fair enough (although few ba players play hilly maps, and vehicles get the anphibs, minelayers, artillery and antiswarm) but maybe a slight buff in these areas wouldnt be amiss, make that half of the tech tree a little more legitimate

Ivory you play much BA?

yeh and u?

sry but if AKS and PWs were bad units ppl would not spam them. But they work even late game - i love to mix ak mases with mechs or other heavy units since aks give me LOS, some dps and com detector. Even on their own they can hit hard behind hills and rape base apart.

IMO they are good units, but not on flat map ofc.

Zenka wrote:There should be a more elegant solution to this.
You can always assume the community is stupid and try to be a jerk in the space the mod allows them. (beautifully explained by Yahtzee in his Saints Row 2 review)
The bear hover transport isn't allowed to pick up enemy units anymore after people figured out it's an amazing machine of golly-or-comm-sucking-goodness. So it got fixed.

In this case it's a simple matter of lowering the hp of the atlas and make in impossible to pick up any units other then yours. (so Regret can stop wining). Also it's fair not to be allowed to pick up your comm with an atlas, make it so that you need a t2 air transport for it. This way you prevented to most abuse.

The whole AA vs Air (vs rest) balance is a more difficult matter.

my 2 cents of course

<protip>Stupidity is not a valid factor in the balance equation.</protip>

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:kbot con has half the HP of vehicle con
it is slower
it is roughly the same price and BT

pw/ak can just about stand upto flash/gator swarms for metal cost effectivenss, but for energy they cost 250% more.
they are also less effective at attacking llts due to low indivual hp
chain exploding
slow PW raising arm animation
pathetic ak hp (ak holds a middleground between scout/raider)
they have way high BT and E-costs compared to their cost in vehicles
since these units are the only units vaugely comparable to vehicle dps, this is pretty harsh

the ba philosophy of "kbots are weaker because they go go up hill" is fair enough (although few ba players play hilly maps, and vehicles get the anphibs, minelayers, artillery and antiswarm) but maybe a slight buff in these areas wouldnt be amiss, make that half of the tech tree a little more legitimate

I am not sure whether aks/peewees need a buff. They do seem to go up in smoke together pretty easily. Maybe lowering their build time by 50% would be nice?

One thing I am sure of though is that the con k-bot is way too slow. I realize that it can climb hills and rough terrain much better than vehicles, and I agree that this is useful - but even still - they are SO slow. Vehicles are literally 3 to 4 times faster, which, in my opinion, may be a little excessive.

Can we make con kbots move a little faster? I realize that, in general, vehicles are for flat maps and kbots are for rough terrain. Having said that, it seems a little ridiculous that kbots get such a penalty when it comes to expanding quickly on any map. Besides, I really don't think increasing the con kbot speed a bit will make the whole tech tree overpowered.

Wing

Wingflier wrote:I am not sure whether aks/peewees need a buff. They do seem to go up in smoke together pretty easily. Maybe lowering their build time by 50% would be nice?

One thing I am sure of though is that the con k-bot is way too slow. I realize that it can climb hills and rough terrain much better than vehicles, and I agree that this is useful - but even still - they are SO slow. Vehicles are literally 3 to 4 times faster, which, in my opinion, may be a little excessive.

Can we make con kbots move a little faster? I realize that, in general, vehicles are for flat maps and kbots are for rough terrain. Having said that, it seems a little ridiculous that kbots get such a penalty when it comes to expanding quickly on any map. Besides, I really don't think increasing the con kbot speed a bit will make the whole tech tree overpowered.

Wing

American Scientific Method (tm) indicates your skill level is insufficient to produce reasonable balancing suggestions.

iirc, Caydr's design was that the kbot was meant to be useful as raw buildpower, while the vehicle was useful as mobility and armor. Such that, if you had both labs, you could use the vehicles to go out and work the battlefield while you'd use the kbots to do assistance around the base and build econ.

I don't know why they have the same workertime now.

I think T1 vehicles vs T1 kbots are reasonably balanced, but T2 vehicles seem way better than T2 kbots even on fairly bumpy maps. T2 vehicles tend to have more HP, more range, and move faster than T2 kbots.

kbots are still inferior to t1 veh, even 1v1ing on small 8x8 maps because of their high energy costs + long bt/ metal cost ratio

1v0ry_k1ng wrote:kbots are still inferior to t1 veh, even 1v1ing on small 8x8 maps because of their high energy costs + long bt/ metal cost ratio

rocko spam on 8v8 maps??works fine even on flats..

I just looked at modinfo and the history - what happened was that the construction vehicle, over the course of AA, got a tonne of price-cuts, armour boosts, and speed buffs. Meanwhile the kbot got a slight boost to its workertime, and slight speed and armor nerf. That's it. Now they cost nearly the same, while the vehicle is faster and tougher. The old conbot sucked (I was wrong, 1.46 kbot had weaker buildpower than the vehicle) but the conveh was so much more expensive, which balanced things out a bit.

Pxtl wrote:I just looked at modinfo and the history - what happened was that the construction vehicle, over the course of AA, got a tonne of price-cuts, armour boosts, and speed buffs. Meanwhile the kbot got a slight boost to its workertime, and slight speed and armor nerf. That's it. Now they cost nearly the same, while the vehicle is faster and tougher. The old conbot sucked (I was wrong, 1.46 kbot had weaker buildpower than the vehicle) but the conveh was so much more expensive, which balanced things out a bit.

Veh cons cant climb hills.

anphibious veh cons can

The "can't climb hills" distinction doesn't account for the massive difference between the two units, particularly considering that the bulk of the work of a con isn't done on a hill. Hill-building is the exception, not the rule... and for the exception, you can build the amphicon. Cons claim territory - that means they need to be able to move. The amphicon does a better job at this than the conbot, because it moves quickly, even though it is less cost-effective.

An approach I could see working:
1) give the Conbot a slight boost to workertime - say up to 120. This would make it _better_ than the conveh at something.
2) let rezbots build metal extractors... maybe DTs, too.
3) move radar kbots to L1.

The most essential thing on the front line is radar and metal extractors. L1 mobile radars get you the former, rezbots with metal extractors get you the latter while you wait for your conbots to catch up.

Regret wrote:

Wingflier wrote:I am not sure whether aks/peewees need a buff. They do seem to go up in smoke together pretty easily. Maybe lowering their build time by 50% would be nice?

One thing I am sure of though is that the con k-bot is way too slow. I realize that it can climb hills and rough terrain much better than vehicles, and I agree that this is useful - but even still - they are SO slow. Vehicles are literally 3 to 4 times faster, which, in my opinion, may be a little excessive.

Can we make con kbots move a little faster? I realize that, in general, vehicles are for flat maps and kbots are for rough terrain. Having said that, it seems a little ridiculous that kbots get such a penalty when it comes to expanding quickly on any map. Besides, I really don't think increasing the con kbot speed a bit will make the whole tech tree overpowered.

Wing

American Scientific Method (tm) indicates your skill level is insufficient to produce reasonable balancing suggestions.

The International Scientific Method suggests that you are simply an arrogant, honorless noob who I could easily destroy in a 1v1.

Brain Damage wrote:anphibious veh cons can

Look at it's cost.