Spring RTS Engine

[Krogoth86] wrote:Well the Sharpshooters just take 200 energy/sec and that also only when moving (only 75 when holding position). It's the Skuttle which takes 400 and which is the one that might get lowered values because - well saying the Skuttle is more dangerous than the Sniper is kinda strange - especially as they are one of Arm's best KBots...

Concealed improved crawling bomb is much more dangerous than 1 sharpshooter. Atleast if opponent wont be able to see invis.
About energy seems i need to recheck - i was sure it is 400/sec.
If it is 200 its ok

[Krogoth86] wrote: The EMP missiles are much more "worthy" than the Core Tactical Nukes in BA. You can disable an Anti-Nuke with just one rocket (instead of 2 for Core), disable whole defense lines with Doomsday for long enough to scramble them with your attack force, you can EMP incoming Mechs and have twice as much range as Core's version. So just use them correctly and they'll turn out to be your new best friend...

Probably... As for EMPing antinuke - ive never tried. Usually people just bombing it.
Well id suggest than that it is should be more effective agains units and turrets.

[Krogoth86] wrote:But I'd say the Fido's far from useless - he of course isn't a first line assault unit but a great supporter and even outranger against T1 defenses...

Prolly fido wasnt that bad if it's price were two times lower. 253 metal... is insane for this unit.

[Krogoth86] wrote:Well I think he was meant to shoot on his own in the meanwhile though I didn't test it lately. Besides that he may be hard to use but if you know how to he can lead to devastating results..

It's price is 650 metal. Could be better IMO.
And try to use it btw))) It is uneffective even against KAIK

Im sure you will be agree with me after this.


OH! I forgot! Anyone else except me wants metal makers back? I want!

Anti nukes never had a cloak in OTA.

dzzirrus wrote:Concealed improved crawling bomb is much more dangerous than 1 sharpshooter. Atleast if opponent wont be able to see invis.
About energy seems i need to recheck - i was sure it is 400/sec.
If it is 200 its ok

Don't mistake the cloaking ability with general invisibility. They still appear as radar dots and due to their little HP they get shot down in no time. You could try to advance with a mobile jammer but their range isn't that great and they are slow what still gives you enough time to kill the jammer (probably by having some cloaked and stealthed Dragon Eyes somewhere or just something with long sight range) and the Crawling Bomb...

dzzirrus wrote:Probably... As for EMPing antinuke - ive never tried. Usually people just bombing it.
Well id suggest than that it is should be more effective agains units and turrets.

You can shut down pretty much everything in a circle with a radius greater than the weapon range of an AK for at least about 40-50 seconds by uncounterable missiles you can build miles away and you still want them to get better?

If at all the Core Missiles have to get better (they once had the same range but it got reverted). You should either use the missiles to kill the Antinukes or some static defences (you rarely have enough range to hit precious eco - especially with the Core ones) and for both the Arm missiles do the better job (you must have a task force for sweeping the EMPed areas though...

dzzirrus wrote:Prolly fido wasnt that bad if it's price were two times lower. 253 metal... is insane for this unit.

Why is that? Just go ahead and compare it to the Zeus and you'll find out that its stats are ok. You just mustn't use it as a close combat unit because they are so dead when you try. They just are supporters and function like some kind of artillery - not as assault units...

dzzirrus wrote:Anyone else except me wants metal makers back?

And why is that?
Build an Adv. Solar plus a Metal Maker and you get more for the price so why care about those Metal Makers?

[Krogoth86] wrote:

dzzirrus wrote:Concealed improved crawling bomb is much more dangerous than 1 sharpshooter. Atleast if opponent wont be able to see invis.
About energy seems i need to recheck - i was sure it is 400/sec.
If it is 200 its ok

Don't mistake the cloaking ability with general invisibility. They still appear as radar dots and due to their little HP they get shot down in no time. You could try to advance with a mobile jammer but their range isn't that great and they are slow what still gives you enough time to kill the jammer (probably by having some cloaked and stealthed Dragon Eyes somewhere or just something with long sight range) and the Crawling Bomb...

This seems like a bug. It's absurd that a unit can be seen on radar but not up close.

It is not a bug. Play OTA.

It's also the only way to detect a cloaked unit without getting close. Would you rather have invisible bombs that you can't detect before they explode?

Sleksa wrote:well i played AA and uberhack and some other mods and i dont remember them having a cloack either :/

They definitely cloaked at one point in AA for Spring.

You're definitely better off with a mobile one on patrol than with a static one IMO.

KDR_11k wrote:It's also the only way to detect a cloaked unit without getting close. Would you rather have invisible bombs that you can't detect before they explode?

It isnt the only. There is perimeter camera t1 and another t2 thingie (countermeasure...) that is able to see cloaked.

[Krogoth86] wrote: Don't mistake the cloaking ability with general invisibility. They still appear as radar dots and due to their little HP they get shot down in no time. You could try to advance with a mobile jammer but their range isn't that great and they are slow what still gives you enough time to kill the jammer (probably by having some cloaked and stealthed Dragon Eyes somewhere or just something with long sight range) and the Crawling Bomb...

Well ive killed defence with those bomb at delta siege ). I didnt use jammer, but ive used one "the can" :)

[Krogoth86] wrote:You can shut down pretty much everything in a circle with a radius greater than the weapon range of an AK for at least about 40-50 seconds by uncounterable missiles you can build miles away and you still want them to get better?

Are you sure about 40-50 seconds?

[Krogoth86] wrote:Why is that? Just go ahead and compare it to the Zeus and you'll find out that its stats are ok. You just mustn't use it as a close combat unit because they are so dead when you try. They just are supporters and function like some kind of artillery - not as assault units...

Fido is unable to kill wind generator from first shot :))) You should try em against live opponent. Im sure you will be dissapointed.
Sumo got same range. Sumo costs as 8 fidos. In fight of 1 sumo and 8 fidos, fidos got no chance...

[Krogoth86] wrote:Anyone else except me wants metal makers back?
And why is that?
Build an Adv. Solar plus a Metal Maker and you get more for the price so why care about those Metal Makers?

Wrong!
Metal maker's price was 212 metal. It produced 1 metal without any energy. Adv. solar's - 343, metal maker requires 60 energy to produce 1 metal, solar's energy - 75.
So 4 solar's price will be 1372 metal, energy produced - 300, thats enough for 5 metal makers.
Price of 5 metal makers would be 1060 metal - not that much lower, but anyway.


metal maker vs fusions / moho metal makers:

Fusion need 4004 metal to be built, produces 1000 energy, moho metal maker's price is 358 metal, +12 metal, -600 energy.
3 fusions - 12012, +3000 energy, enough for 5 moho MMs with +60 metal for 1790 metal. 13802 metal for all of this.
You can create 66 metal makers for this price with + 66 metal

They cant beat adv fusions and geothermals tho...

Ive found another oddness (prolly it supposed to be, but anyway):
comparison of combat engineers:
- core's kbot http://modinfo.adune.nl/index.php?act=e ... e&MOD=ba60

- arm's vehicles http://modinfo.adune.nl/index.php?act=e ... m&MOD=ba60

- arm's kbots http://modinfo.adune.nl/index.php?act=e ... m&MOD=ba60

Why arm kbot cant build a damn thing? Atleast zeus and radar should be given to it Well if it is as intended than it is ok. IMO arm's kbots are weak enough already to give em nerfed combat engineer also :)

dzzirrus wrote:Ive found another oddness (prolly it supposed to be, but anyway):
comparison of combat engineers:
- core's kbot http://modinfo.adune.nl/index.php?act=e ... e&MOD=ba60

- arm's vehicles http://modinfo.adune.nl/index.php?act=e ... m&MOD=ba60

- arm's kbots http://modinfo.adune.nl/index.php?act=e ... m&MOD=ba60

Why arm kbot cant build a damn thing? Atleast zeus and radar should be given to it Well if it is as intended than it is ok. IMO arm's kbots are weak enough already to give em nerfed combat engineer also :)

Freaker - Combat Engineer

Consul - Combat Engineer

Fark - Fast Assist/Repair Kbot

Arm does not have a Combat engineer Kbot
Core does not have a Combat engineer Vehicle

What comes to anti-nukes, like mr D said, just build more of them, they cost 1.500 metal which is like 1/10 of the price of a nuke.

Otherwise you could go for bots and make the moving antinukes.

about the crawling bomb; i'd much rather prefer it to be seen by radars than it being both cloacked and invisible, so the only way to notice it would be it blowing up

dzzirrus wrote:Are you sure about 40-50 seconds?

Well I thought the duration had something to do with the HP that have to be EMPed and though tougher units would have a shorter paralyze time. But it looks like I was wrong with that:

I put one EMP missile right in the middle of this testing squad and they all got shut down for 55 seconds (and yes it counts down fine - no speedig up or something)...

dzzirrus wrote:Fido is unable to kill wind generator from first shot :))) You should try em against live opponent. Im sure you will be dissapointed.
Sumo got same range. Sumo costs as 8 fidos. In fight of 1 sumo and 8 fidos, fidos got no chance...

Well try to swith to the Fidos 2nd weapon - he deals more damage per shot then (although I don't know if dps is higher then too - I'd have to look at the script)...

The comparison with the Sumo isn't that fair as a Fido is about 2.7 times faster. Besides the different roles that's just a trade-off...

dzzirrus wrote:Wrong!
Metal maker's price was 212 metal. It produced 1 metal without any energy. Adv. solar's - 343, metal maker requires 60 energy to produce 1 metal, solar's energy - 75.
So 4 solar's price will be 1372 metal, energy produced - 300, thats enough for 5 metal makers.
Price of 5 metal makers would be 1060 metal - not that much lower, but anyway.

You totally miss the energy costs in this calculation and that's what makes the metal generators so bad: If you say that 60e is as much as one metal (as this is the T1 conversion rate) a metal generator costs 477 while an Adv. Solar costs 422. With a metal maker the solar-maker-combo would cost 441 which is cheaper than one metal generator, gives you some +15 additional energy per second and when summed together has 6 times the health of one generator...

dzzirrus wrote: Why did you remove arm radar kbots????

Bring em back pls - thats quite odd arms miss em while cores got.

Thanks for reporting

Noticed two odd things (might be engine not mod): Tremors attacked ally battleship; defence towers attacked ally con vehicle (but only after I "gave" him that vehicle).

Other question: Is there a simple way to put some sort of notification on units that they require a lot of energy to move/fire/cloak?

Finally: I freely admit to playing mostly vs KAIK (my friends like botbashing). Versus swarms of T1 KBots, the Core Dragon's Maw is an awesome machine of annihilation. How do ARM defences deal with swarms?

smokingwreckage wrote:Noticed two odd things (might be engine not mod): Tremors attacked ally battleship; defence towers attacked ally con vehicle (but only after I "gave" him that vehicle).

I think this is an engine bug (I've seen my units attack an allies before also). If someone can find a reliable way to reproduce this, it should be reported on Mantis.

That was added in a revision pretty shortly before release IIRC, I made a patch that makes them STOP shooting if the target is allied and that worked but now they just keep shooting.

Sleksa wrote:Fark - Fast Assist/Repair Kbot

Arm does not have a Combat engineer Kbot
Core does not have a Combat engineer Vehicle
...

Didnt notice it's description :/ Ok it is clear now, thx.

NOiZE wrote:Thanks for reporting

No problems. Quite strange no one else reported it before... WTB fix asap )))

[Krogoth86] wrote:Well I thought the duration had something to do with the HP that have to be EMPed and though tougher units would have a shorter paralyze time. But it looks like I was wrong with that:

I put one EMP missile right in the middle of this testing squad and they all got shut down for 55 seconds (and yes it counts down fine - no speedig up or something)...

Well, ive tested those missles myself and i got to say they are quite crappy. At your screenshot situation is very lucky. If you will use it against vehicles it will stun only 2-3 for 55 sec. Waste of metal and energy to get it IMO. Atleas when you arent using nukes.

@dzirrus

The problem is that EMP missiles are primarily used to take down anti-nukes for just long enough to nuke the target. And they're overpowered any way you slice it in that vein. So buffing them would only make them scarier.

dzzirrus wrote:Well, ive tested those missles myself and i got to say they are quite crappy. At your screenshot situation is very lucky. If you will use it against vehicles it will stun only 2-3 for 55 sec. Waste of metal and energy to get it IMO. Atleas when you arent using nukes.

Well you shouldn't doom the EMP missiles for little usage on something they aren't made for. You shouldn't build them for disabling some tanks or something - that's what the EMP bombers are for. The EMP missiles are primarily for disabling enemy (Nuke-) defenses (which is what makes Arm a bit OP i lategame - especially as mobile Antis are rarely used) or even stopping some T3 Mechs (firing a missile from two silos even shuts a Bantha down for 55 secs)...

[Krogoth86] wrote: Well you shouldn't doom the EMP missiles for little usage on something they aren't made for. You shouldn't build them for disabling some tanks or something - that's what the EMP bombers are for. The EMP missiles are primarily for disabling enemy (Nuke-) defenses (which is what makes Arm a bit OP i lategame - especially as mobile Antis are rarely used) or even stopping some T3 Mechs (firing a missile from two silos even shuts a Bantha down for 55 secs)...

Last time i tried it, you needed to be really spot on with the timing to be able to emp and nuke an anti. Things may have been changed since then, but 55 secs seems to be overstating it.