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The Problem is were Religion comes close to Power

I have sort of a Problem when the Witnesses of Jehova denie me a Blood Conserve at a Hospital after an Accident. Or Hindus take my Steak - or Moslems ruin my BarbeQ - and so on.

And to tell the truth, most people don´t choose there religion willingly, they are indoctrinated as child - or forced into by woman, who makes the simple statement: Join my Religion or your no longer Family. Simple Social Pressure - and worser..

I wish all those Fanatics could taste for one day taste there own behaviour to the "Outside/Non-Believer" world...

Problem is that some religions dont respect other religions/ways of tough... aka WAR...

i may be a Christian (as stated), but i wouldnt blow myself up in a war.

No you have (had) your holy crusades and shit.

You're now bloated and impotent.

Zoy64 wrote:back to the original conversation, I AM A CHRISTIAN AND PROUD OF IT!!!!!1 Now, if you aren't, that's your problem. You see, i could give you a list proving that God exists, but it would be too long for the forums to handle. Here's one example http://jcsm.org/myspace/laminin.jpg You see, Laminin is the cell that keeps the bodily cells from falling apart. And Afterlife, i believe there is one.

Please provide some of your list!!!!!1

PicassoCT wrote:And to tell the truth, most people don´t choose there religion willingly, they are indoctrinated as child - or forced into by woman, who makes the simple statement: Join my Religion or your no longer Family. Simple Social Pressure - and worser..

I'd say it's 50/50 acctually...

Don't underestimate the 2 great false motives.

1. Promise of eternal life/pleasure for compliance and eternal pain/torture for disobeyance
2. The desire to conform to the expectations of the community surrounding you

Religions do alot of good things too. Most religions promote law, construct community and social group, and promote order and organization of society. They just really don't work well in positions of power generally since pretty much every religion ever doesn't actually scale past the scope of individual and immediate community...

Your common Christian will be your ideal citizen, compliant, social, helpful to the wellfare of others, but get that same person who's personal agenda works so well in society to make law, and watch their brain explode and society collapse around them.

Zoy64 wrote:i may be a Christian (as stated), but i wouldnt blow myself up in a war.

I bet tough that many christians would go to war to, for example, prevent the use of embrionary cells to cure sicknessess :)

And certain religions indeed promote the overall wellfare of the comunity, but that should be something natural to everone, not just from religions :)

The Problem is that most Religious Memes preach one thing over everything else - spread - by word and birth. There is were the Trouble starts- high birth rates have brought us into the trouble we are in today - and the spreading of there word and the fierce battle against sience stop us Atheists from taking meassures nessesary just to avoid the Enviromental consequencecollaps that Religion always leads into

There is a Reason there is desert everywhere Religion claims to have its origin.

PS: I disinclude some Animistic Religons - Shintoism and some AmericanNative Religions did quite well to establish a Equilibrium of birth & enviroment - but wonderwhat they are on the decline...

Atheists are stupid.Be an agnostic.Thank you.

Gota wrote:Atheists are stupid.Be an agnostic.Thank you.

Well they behave on the same manner towards the sentient world, so who cares? :)

manored wrote:

Gota wrote:Atheists are stupid.Be an agnostic.Thank you.

Well they behave on the same manner towards the sentient world, so who cares? :)

No they don't. Agnostics often believe in things like ghosts and aliens and stuff. Athiests very rarely do.

ghosts and aliens are stupid

I believe in Alienghosts, they were burried Aeons ago on this Planet - and when you dig out a (mistaken by us for a) Fossil and set it to rest in a Museum, they awake at night and walk! And they haunt those Places howling :" Evvvooolutioooon: I can´t believe myself!"

PicassoCT wrote:I believe in Alienghosts, they were burried Aeons ago on this Planet - and when you dig out a (mistaken by us for a) Fossil and set it to rest in a Museum, they awake at night and walk! And they haunt those Places howling :" Evvvooolutioooon: I can´t believe myself!"

I love PicassoCT

Existence is infinite in space, yes? There is no 'edge' of existence.

Maybe space, definitely not time. This argument could go for space, too, I suppose. If the universe (philosophically, the universe=existence most of the time) has existed for an infinite amount of time we would have to have had traversed infinity to get to the time we are at right now; and traversing infinity is impossible. You cannot pinpoint a specific part of infinity. Even science doesn't support an infinate universe; the big bang makes it entirely possible for everything to have come out of nothing at all.

Anything can happen. So, in infinite space, what are the odds of something not happening? If it has odds of happening, no matter how small, it has to happen somewhere, eventually, within an infinite space. The universe works dang near perfect doesn't it? It had to happen eventually, and here it is.

This is essentially the argument David Hume made in the 1700s in a book he wrote with the goal of destroying all teleological arguments for God's existence forever (which were popular at the time). It was a Socratic dialog and one of the atheist characters asked the theist to imagine an finite space (I cant think of why it would matter if the space was finite or not besides it being easier to shake...) with a finite amount of stuff in it. Then, he asked the theist, imagine shaking the bag for an infinate amount of time. Every possible existence ever would have to come into fruition eventually inside of that space (shaking it is kind of a loose analogy but it works). Hume made sure his book was published after he died because he probably would have been killed early on because of how critical the book was. The book destroyed teleological/intelligent design arguments way back in the 1700s in scholarly circles, it's just absent minded popular culture that has not caught up 100 years later.

There must exist somewhere a universe where there is nothing that the god ruling it cannot do

This is an ontological (conceptual) argument for God's existence. If you can conceive of a perfect being (God), and existence is perfect (not quality wise, sort of in terms of existing being more perfect than not existing, I think), then the perfect being must exist. Not exactly what you're saying, but kind of. Another follows the logic of you trying to think of something more perfect than anything else. If you can think of anything then it exists, and you have to think of God; or something lame like that. No ontological arguments make anyone go 'wow, I believe in God now,' because they're not based on anything but concepts and you can just say you don't mean the same thing.

which might as well be ours.

Why?

Then yes, somewhere there's also a universe where the is something the god cannot do, and stuff falls up there because logic is busted.

There is only one universe; the universe is everything in existence. This is philosophy not astronomy, and I would not consider it possible for there to be an astronomical universe in our philosophical universe that has different laws of nature or Gods, though I do not consider it even meaningful for Gods to exist at all because there is no necessary reason for one to exist.

The problem with arguing about God, knowledge, and the like is that we do not know enough about any of it and probably never will, it is either too complicated to put together or entirely unknowable. It's really not anything we need to know, either. It is fun to argue, though, and I'm really just bored and I just got out of philosophy again so I felt like seeing if I learned anything.

TheBigPK wrote:

Existence is infinite in space, yes? There is no 'edge' of existence.

Maybe space, definitely not time. This argument could go for space, too, I suppose. If the universe (philosophically, the universe=existence most of the time) has existed for an infinite amount of time we would have to have had traversed infinity to get to the time we are at right now; and traversing infinity is impossible. You cannot pinpoint a specific part of infinity. Even science doesn't support an infinate universe; the big bang makes it entirely possible for everything to have come out of nothing at all.

However nothing IS infinity :)
Can you measure nothing? No
Can you measure infinity? No
They look quite similar to me :)

manored wrote:

TheBigPK wrote:

Existence is infinite in space, yes? There is no 'edge' of existence.

Maybe space, definitely not time. This argument could go for space, too, I suppose. If the universe (philosophically, the universe=existence most of the time) has existed for an infinite amount of time we would have to have had traversed infinity to get to the time we are at right now; and traversing infinity is impossible. You cannot pinpoint a specific part of infinity. Even science doesn't support an infinate universe; the big bang makes it entirely possible for everything to have come out of nothing at all.

However nothing IS infinity :)
Can you measure nothing? No
Can you measure infinity? No
They look quite similar to me :)

relevance?

SwiftSpear wrote:

manored wrote:

Gota wrote:Atheists are stupid.Be an agnostic.Thank you.

Well they behave on the same manner towards the sentient world, so who cares? :)

No they don't. Agnostics often believe in things like ghosts and aliens and stuff. Athiests very rarely do.

like ghost and aliens ... if you don't believe in aliens you're just stupid and if you believe in ghost you're stupid too

as gota said being atheist is stupid ... it's just like believing in god

Yes, not believing in something because there's no proof at all is clearly as bad as believing in God

Seriously, what the hell? Atheism is just a non-belief in god or gods, it doesn't even mean you accept science.