Spring RTS Engine

Hush neddie, don't advertise that here. Nub comments go here, better comments go elsewhere.

neddiedrow wrote:Well, the Fighters and the Transports are somewhat viable...

You don't need fighters, you can just build towers and transports usually aren't worth of cost/time aswell.

Hellspawn wrote:You don't need fighters, you can just build towers and transports usually aren't worth of cost/time aswell.

I agree with the fact that "You don't NEED fighters" completely, however I prefer fighter patrols rather static AA because they give you the edge in ground fights as well, e.g. if you have unit vs same unit, a few shots from fighters will mean your unit is nearly guaranteed to survive. Also fighter patrols mean that its near impossible to get cloaked units into your base. However it is true that aa towers are too good at the moment, hopefully this will change in the new aa.

As for transports, I think anyone who plays any other map but comet catcher, :p, realises that they are extremely useful, albeit quite micro intensive. Many games have been won, by strategic airdrops. Actually, IMO the air-transport buff Caydr made in 2.21 (I think) was the best change in the changelog (Together with decreased autorepair)

Cabbage wrote:+1 old stats were fine (although the 10% increase to turn rate/speed was fine) And Konane, air was never the be all end all of strategies, its just stupid people who got brawler rushed (by steve? ^^) used to complain all the time so it got changed. Air was never overpowered but it got changed because of people whining as they never expected it or build nough AA. Fighters are fine as they are, but brawlers should get reverted(the 10% speed/dmg/evading thing nerf).

Banshees have always been the poorest unit in AA (imo) and need to be removed or buffed

bladewings are decent, the only problem with them is that instis and other similar units can take them our easily, which shouldn't happen, I'm fine with missile towers killing them in a single shot, but anything which isn't specifically anti air shouldn't take them out so easily..

Bombers are fine as they are..

Sorry for rubbish spelling etc, I've been drinking, but im pretty sire its clear enough to understand

I think banshees are alright, it's a great harassment unit, it's like an ak that's really easy to get behind someones lines, though I suppose thats not as useful as bladewings.

Lvl1 air in general is great since the transports got buffed, every unit is useful because theres not to much aa earlier on in the game.

"(the 10% speed/dmg/evading thing nerf)" that already got reverted this last version I think, the problem now is that flak trucks got so many buffs that they're impervious to any number of brawlers, they're supposed to defend against brawlers obviously but the ratio of gunships one flak truck defends against is all wrong, this paired with the removal of missile damage reduction and aa kbots being a bit to strong still(and extremely hard to kill with ground units apparently) gunships are just a massive waste of resources unless the enemy is completely unprepared and doesn't have the means to get an aa unit from a lvl2 factory in time.

Lippy wrote: As for transports, I think anyone who plays any other map but comet catcher, :p, realises that they are extremely useful, albeit quite micro intensive. Many games have been won, by strategic airdrops. Actually, IMO the air-transport buff Caydr made in 2.21 (I think) was the best change in the changelog (Together with decreased autorepair)

This tactic would be worth only in situation where front is so porced you can go trough it and enemy doesn't have at least minimal anti-air defence.

So is going air for transports worth? I doubt, you only get 1 chance of atack (it won't work 2nd time) and even if enemy has few anti air towers in base this tactic fails misarebly. Even if you do manage to drop few units at back you will usually able to kill only few solars/wind turbins before enemy units come near. Not mentioning time with loading/unloading your units. I'd rather use bombers. Or just go after 2nd vehicle/bot factory and outspam enemy.

And only like 1/4-1/3 of games I play are on CC .

IMO, a good balence for raw numbers of Flak trucks vs Gunships should be.

1 flak truck should kill 2 gunships, leaving the flak truck either dead or greatly wounded.

3 gunships vs 1 flak truck would leave you with 1 gunship left, or 1 + 1 greatly wounded.

There is just so much random chance with a large AOE weapon like flak units, its hard to get steady figures to cover all engagements.

LVL-2 Kbot antiair needs adjustment as well, they seem Overpowered a bit.

I think banshees are alright, it's a great harassment unit, it's like an ak that's really easy to get behind someones lines, though I suppose thats not as useful as bladewings.

I'll have whatever he's having, wrap it in a discrete brown bag pls. ty. ttgh (time to get hiiiiiiiiigggggghhhhhhhhhhh!)

well like transports its only useful on maps that have terrain to move over so cc wouldn't work.
but on any game with some mountains between 2 bases you can easily rush some in before theres any aa and kill wind farms and mexes.

More and more games with several people has lately been driven towards scout units rushing, or more like pouring scout units out in tons since no stationary defence can handle it...
Meaning - No tactics at all, mere overflowing the defences

imo scouts are for scouting, harrassing backlines. Not to take out solid emplacements and I wouldn't mind if they couldn't hurt ex an llt at all especially when its behind DT all around, it should perhaps storm past and wreak havoc in enemy base but not be much usefull against stationary defences



Suggested Remedies:

*Scoutfire can't shoot over DT (will shoot at dt if they fire)
-This would atleast make towers chew up more and not die rather quick as they do today !

*Anti scout weapons like LLT's and them vehicles with aoe make the aoe effect larger and persistant -Kinda like napalm effect so more can drive through it and get dmg like them forest fires of old...
(lingering effect shouldnt stack but it would add up on all them fast rushing kind of units, but not very effective vs all other)
This making it a better stopper for massive rushes of scouts or even streams of them...

A frenzy like ability when it kills (or even just hits) a (scout) target it gets an increased rate of fire for a moment that stacks up to x times... This even more to deter people to use massive ammounts of scouts, more experince the higher the cap (better crew ai in tower) a dimishing value that will lower again when out of combat so to speak for a while

combined perhaps with a more difficult idea:
Make diffriented shots on all stationary energy tower. Their size and cost could make it realistic with a more advanced targeting system, if its target is a small unit let it fire a lesser shot wich means it would recharge faster and ie increase it rate of fire.

This could also be applied to anti air...

But it all comes down to if there is a will and if theres a possibility for anything like all these suggestions in the engine (or if it makes to much cpu usage)

Iklash222 wrote:More and more games with several people has lately been driven towards scout units rushing, or more like pouring scout units out in tons since no stationary defence can handle it...
Meaning - No tactics at all, mere overflowing the defences

imo scouts are for scouting, harrassing backlines. Not to take out solid emplacements and I wouldn't mind if they couldn't hurt ex an llt at all especially when its behind DT all around, it should perhaps storm past and wreak havoc in enemy base but not be much usefull against stationary defences



Suggested Remedies:

*Scoutfire can't shoot over DT (will shoot at dt if they fire)
-This would atleast make towers chew up more and not die rather quick as they do today !

*Anti scout weapons like LLT's and them vehicles with aoe make the aoe effect larger and persistant -Kinda like napalm effect so more can drive through it and get dmg like them forest fires of old...
(lingering effect shouldnt stack but it would add up on all them fast rushing kind of units, but not very effective vs all other)
This making it a better stopper for massive rushes of scouts or even streams of them...

A frenzy like ability when it kills (or even just hits) a (scout) target it gets an increased rate of fire for a moment that stacks up to x times... This even more to deter people to use massive ammounts of scouts, more experince the higher the cap (better crew ai in tower) a dimishing value that will lower again when out of combat so to speak for a while

combined perhaps with a more difficult idea:
Make diffriented shots on all stationary energy tower. Their size and cost could make it realistic with a more advanced targeting system, if its target is a small unit let it fire a lesser shot wich means it would recharge faster and ie increase it rate of fire.

This could also be applied to anti air...

But it all comes down to if there is a will and if theres a possibility for anything like all these suggestions in the engine (or if it makes to much cpu usage)

are you trying to say scouts are strong?

you know lkash, it might be easier to just revert them to their old stats instead of all those complicated changes

Machiosabre wrote:well like transports its only useful on maps that have terrain to move over so cc wouldn't work.
but on any game with some mountains between 2 bases you can easily rush some in before theres any aa and kill wind farms and mexes.

Majority of experience player will make at least few air towers before enemy manages to build 2nd lvl 1 factory ==> airfield. Few air towers > transports. And more then map is closed and air-friendly more air towers will opponent usually build.

Hellspawn wrote: Majority of experienced players will make at least few air towers before enemy manages to build 2nd lvl 1 factory ==> airfield. Few air towers > transports. And more then map is closed and air-friendly more air towers will opponent usually build.

I think that says it all:
majority != all
experienced != all
therefore:
airdrop = useful

:p

Plus, early on, you're only going to build towers in places of importance. Your not going to build them "on the side" as resources can be better spent elsewhere. In fact I find that the more the player is experienced, the less porcy he is, and concentrates more on attack and so tends to leave many open spaces undefended where airdrops are easy to do.

helly is also talking mostly about 1v1s

well obviously a lot of tactics just don't work in 1v1 so theres no point in even arguing that.

Few air towers > transports.

Wrong - a LOT of air towers > transports..

depends, landing next to a pair of towers defeats huge numbers of landers. flying past them to land somewhere out of their range wont do too much damage

Lippy wrote: Plus, early on, you're only going to build towers in places of importance. Your not going to build them "on the side" as resources can be better spent elsewhere. In fact I find that the more the player is experienced, the less porcy he is, and concentrates more on attack and so tends to leave many open spaces undefended where airdrops are easy to do.

1.) I can probably beat 80% of people using stumpies only, but that doesn't mean stumpies are ok. Vs nubs every tactic works...

2.) Airdrop will be successful if you come behind defence line where he has economy. Better players usually put few anti air towers there (even to come there you need luck of not meeting any AA on your way). Noone has beat me yet with airdrops, they tried few times but failed. I think LCC tried this last time. With around 15 transports, 2 of them came to end of base, they got maybe one or two solar then my units came.

It just isn't cost effective.

edit: Btw I am talking about normal land maps, on island-like maps or huge hills this tactic might work.

jackalope wrote:helly is also talking mostly about 1v1s

Yeah in team game this is even less possible, since game is more porcy, you need to control less area which is easier to cover.

^^

i've used airdrops to great effect many times. They are cost effective, unless you send them into huge fields of AA, but then, that would just be stupid...

you can reasonably mass 20 transports witohut huge amouns of metal, fly those over a dozen missiles towers, or more commonly, none, and tell me they arn't effective...