Spring RTS Engine

What progress has been made with configs?

none from me I can't progress while the bad build pos spams up the console and slows the pc to a hault...

Also I don't have a build yet where solobuild or single build work, although IK seems to have a newer build.

Mex upgrading is pretty much vital to the way i'd built the config anyway becuase it takes all the metal spots so early, then by the time it techs up there's no metal spots it can use. Can prob use fusions and metal makers but its not going to be as effective.

my arm config is almost done

But it would play the game and thats what I want. NTai progressed for years under that mex system pwning other AIs, and right now I'm not interested in new features or anything enw. I'm only changing the code atm to fix bugs.

Perhaps "Couldnt find a build position" is more appropriate than "badpos 6"

the ability to upgrade mex's would be a good idea for the future, just bolt the groupAI into the NTAI code or somthing. I still want the scouter tag which makes raiders go around destorying mex's

I've followed this thread for some time, and are optimising my own config (Since Build NTAI 9.61) for AA 2.3B2 (spring 74b3)

Testing with NTAI 9.7c - now.

The first attempts of a very simple config, made NTAI run into the unitlimit (400u per side - i have a slow computer), before it reach level 2.

So I've focused on getting NTAI to "tech up" - FAST! (Essential for AA), using Emax and Emin limits.

The Emax and Emin are really cool features, and works excellent

I also experiment *ghast* with the Antistall function. If I put most of the units in "NoAntiStall=" and only a few expensive units in AlwaysAntiStall, the results are very good. (Doesn't parallel-build battleships, Buzz's and Vulcan's to early)

I know the antistall function have problems with the spring economy, but would still like some insight into the parameter of "antistallwindow="

I have tested both on small maps (10x10), large maps (28x28) and water maps. But I stay clear of speedmetals. Though, some of the tested maps - have metal clustered in medium size areas. (SwampIsland_v4)

I test against 5 opponents, all AI (KAI, QAI, TSI, RAI, AAI), and NTAI (my config) reaches level 2 before all other AI's.
I even have a demo, where NTAI cleans the map, using several KROG's and Flagships. - something no other spring AI's have ever achieved. (within 400 units)
(Actually ever since i upgrade my RAM, demo files have a "sync" issue??)

One thing I havn't worked on, is creating large airfleets, as every other AI is very weak in airdefence. (This might be a serious balance issue with AA)

Current status:

Working config (tested for at least 10 different maps and at least 30 games) for AA, missing some balance with hovercrafts.
Unresolved issues:
1) Sometimes NTAI, starts to build lots of L2 factories, at the same time. This leads to serious stalls.
2) Sometimes NTAI builds a mine in front of exit from the first vehicle factory - leads to blocking of construction vehicles. (factory_spacing=3. default_spacing=2))
3) NTAI builds radars, jammers, shields, and large defences (doomsday, annihilators,antinukes, tactical nukes, etc.) to close.
4) Early in the game the commander quits his current construction, if a scout passes by nearby - big problem

These issues will be solved if:
1) Solobuild works, cures issue 1.
2 & 3) ConstructionExclusionRange works, cures issue 3, might cure issue 2.

4) Suggestion for solution: When the commander are nanolathing, the RAI AI, allows the commander to fire his laser (not DGUN) WITHOUT quiting construction. This works well, as an occasional hit with the laser on the commanders current in-construction object, doesn't destroy it.

I know that early rushes, against and AI is a big no-no. But NTAI should handle early scouts - WITHOUT quiting construction.

Btw. Dgun precision is fantastic

I look forward to and NTAI with Solobuild and ExclusionRanges working! (And if you have the time - look into the early scout problem)

Thank you for a very FUN AI!!!

Regards
Lale

I made the XTA config spaem gunships no problems :)

RAI doesnt do that its a part of the spring unit AI. NTai however proactively dguns and as such moves away from its build order.

Try upping the spacing requirements on defences too.

Also, dont use minefields with NTai, it doesnt work well.

As for your ram, have yout reid running the memtest boot program on it? It should tell you if you have defective ram installed.

Also how well do you think your config would work with BA and CA? What you have already sounds very good.

Progress creating config file:

I├óÔé¼Ôäóve tested my config with BA4.7 and CA-SVN-R160
(Actually, I also test it with Classic ├óÔé¼ÔÇ£OTA, as I thought CA referred to this mod)

To my pleasant surprise , the config works even better with BA and CA (not OTA) than with AA and (C-OTA)
This trigged a close investigation ├óÔé¼ÔÇ£ see next my next post.

The config does still need some rebalance of a few emax├óÔé¼Ôäós, and optimized use of hovercrafts. Especially since I now got SoloBuild and SingleBuild to work as expected.

In BA and CA, QAI and RAI, gives a tougher resistance , but I├óÔé¼Ôäóm sure that I can make further optimizations to the ntai config.

Oh, and I do not use mine├óÔé¼Ôäós in my config, as hinted in my previous post. The confusing comes from a Danish translation error , Danish mine = mex.

First a hint for all config builders.
SoloBuild and SingleBuild are Case sEnSiTiVe! ├óÔé¼ÔÇ£ with respect to unit names.

Second: explanation for config builders, and a possible bug report for AF

If a mod is not careful constructed, unitnames defined in the FBI/ mod file will often have different upper-case, lower-case typing in different part of the mod. This confuses NTAI to a small degree.

The impact is best demonstrated with the unit ├óÔé¼┼ôgmgeo├óÔé¼┬Ø in BA v4.7
This unit has all capital letters in its unitname definition, (eg GMGEO), and this has two implications for NTAI.

• 1) SoloBuild and SingleBuild needs to be: SoloBuild=GMGEO;. And not small letters, as all other units given for SoloBuild (and SingleBuild) in BA.
  2) The Learn file is messed (Attention! AF ). The Learn file will contain two entries for gmgeo. One with gmgeo=14; and another with GMGEO=345.77; (example value)
  2.cont) For some reason, unitnames with capital letters in the learn file, will have there learned efficiency erased next time a new game is started.

The consequences of the above observed issues are very mod depended. For some mods, the consequences are small. BA and CA, for example, have very few units with capital letters in names.
But OTA and AA has many unitnames with capital letters. Therefore the below consequences, affect these mods, the most.

The consequence of 1:
Config makes should examine unit names in mod/FBI files, for upper case types, and use the same letter case in SoloBuild and SingleBuild. Also check config files, made with toolkit, as they may not have the correct case. :idea:

The consequence of 2:
As the Learn file for mods where lots of unitnames, are in capital letters, are messed up, NTAI will not be able to learn the efficiency of these units.

All unitnames should be lowercase, regardless of what the mod says. NTai maps the lowercase versions to the proper unit definitions.

Also the learning file is not edited, it's erased and rewritten, hence why capitals vanish on reruns of NTai.

Ironically this means I now have to check toolkit saving to make sure it is all converted to lowercase.

Just to be clear├óÔé¼┬ª
With the current build of NTAI 9.7C, using AA 2.23 (and C-OTA, BOTA):
Observed from examination of logfile, and in-game spectator:

With SoloBuild = corsolar; in config file

• * Multiple solar are built at the same time
  * Logfile contains NO ├óÔé¼┼ôsolobuild├óÔé¼┬Ø entries.

With SoloBuild = CORSOLAR; (note! upper case) in config file .

• * Only one solar are built at the same time.
  * Logfile contains many ├óÔé¼┼ôsolobuild├óÔé¼┬Ø entries.

In my experience, the toolkit always makes config files with unitnames in lower case.

Regarding the learn file.
I might not understand the process this file goes though├óÔé¼┬ª..
So i will presume that this is the process:

1) Game starts
2) Learnfile is read
3) Game is played, efficiency read from learnfile are used the first time NTAI has to choise to build a unit.
4) If a unit is used in the game: NTAI makes internal memory update of efficiency, during gameplay.
5) At the end (or during regular intervals) the learn file is erased then rewritten, containing new and old (old= unmodified due to current game not using unit) efficiency data.

If this is indeed what happens, then the below outlines the problem:

Case1: ├óÔé¼ÔÇ£ no problem case!
For unitnames in lower case: "corgeo"
Learn file contains 1 entry in for corgeo in [VALUES]:

• corgeo = 123.4;

Where 123,7 = learn efficiency in previous games (just an example)

1) Game starts
2) Unit efficiency is loaded into ├óÔé¼┼ôcorgeo├óÔé¼┬Ø from learn file.
3) Game does not use unit corgeo.
5) At the end the learnfile is erased, then rewritten with the ├óÔé¼┼ôold├óÔé¼┬Ø (and new) efficiencys.
At the end the Learnfile contains 1 entry in [VALUES]:

• corgeo = 123.4;

No problem: NTAI remembers the previous learned efficiency of corgeo.

Case2: ├óÔé¼ÔÇ£problem case!
For unitnames in UPPER case: "CMGEO"
Learn file contains 2 entries in for cmgeo in [VALUES]:

• CMGEO=432.1;
  corgeo = 14;

Where 432.1 = learn efficiency in previous game (not games)
And 14 = ├óÔé¼┼ôbasis├óÔé¼┬Ø efficiency, written by NTAI in the first game.

1) Game starts
2) Unit efficiency is loaded into ├óÔé¼┼ôcmgeo├óÔé¼┬Ø from learn file.
3) Game does not use unit cmgeo.
5) At the end the learnfile is erased, then rewritten with the ├óÔé¼┼ôbasis├óÔé¼┬Ø efficiencys.
At the end the Learnfile contains only 1 entry for cmgeo in [VALUES]:

• cmgeo = 14;

Problem: NTAI has ├óÔé¼┼ôforgotten├óÔé¼┬Ø the previous learned efficiency of cmgeo.

Footnote: case 2 affects mods like AA, BOTA COTA.
BA and CA mostly falls under case 1

AAI does work like that

Indeed a review of the code inq uestion reveals discrepancies in handling the case sensitive engine data and the lowercase NTai data. (Aswell as revealing a totally unnecessary loop at startup and a mistype that generated unitcreated events when units got damaged).

A new build of NTai is available here:

http://www.darkstars.co.uk/randomfiles/NTaiCaseTest.rar

Please report any further issues, and thanks for the heads up, I was getting worried about confusing reports that it worked and it didnt....

Great!
I will test this build this evening.

I was getting worried, that I might not understand the inner works of NTAI, and was describing an issue, that only existed inside my head.

I do QA for a living, and occasionally suffer the embarrassing of describing a problem to a developer, that only reflects my own misunderstanding of the inner works of the program. (U liv and learn

--------------------

Let me be Clear!
I├óÔé¼Ôäóve tested NTAI 9.7C build with:

• AA 2.23, Classic-OTA, BOTA, CA and BA 4.7.
  With about 15 different maps. (No Speedmetals or spacemods, but plenty of different maps: water, mountains, rivers, artistic)
  Running about 50 games, for at least and 45 minutes each.
  Getting it to build every unit in these mods.

NTAI is ROCK STABLE

NTAI, with reasonable configfile, WORKS!(at least on the maptypes, and the mods I├óÔé¼Ôäóve tested).
With ├óÔé¼┼ôworks├óÔé¼┬Ø, I mean:

• It utilizes the units in an efficient way, (within the rules of the config file).
  It makes reasonable choices with respect to placement and area expansion.
  It very rarely goes into a ├óÔé¼┼ôblind path├óÔé¼┬Ø, both with respect to stall, and unit selection & placement.

There at still some minor issues, but they are small compared to other big AI├óÔé¼Ôäós.

BTW: AF. Does NTAI Nuke?
I ask, because I have seen NTAI built multiple nuke launchers, both tactical and BigOne├óÔé¼Ôäós, but havn├óÔé¼Ôäót seen it actually launce a nuke. (though I might have missed a launch, due to all the ├óÔé¼┼ôclutter├óÔé¼┬Ø)
Does NTAI need certain prerequisites before it launches? (certain map size, constant radar cover, target units)

NTai was the first skirmish AI for spring capable of nuking.

A word of warning, set nukers on holdfire in toolkit, even when playing with them, as they have a habit of firing on their own without notice when they finish a missile.

Also, I'm not so sure that nukers should be built by NTai, they're very expensive and easily made useless by antinuke. In many mods nukers just arent efficient enough to justify their construction.

However if in doubt, use .cheat and .team to take control fo the NTai team and select the nuker and see if its stockpiling or if no missiles are queued for construction at all. Stockpileable units are automatically told to stockpile 100 missiles upon construction.

NTai has a superweapon routine that targets based upon the same threat matrix used by the attack group targetting. There is a slim chance that this is failing and only being used for things like vulcans and buzzsaws but I doubt that as I've seen NTai nuke in the past.

Nukers should have solobuild and a minimum energy at least.

I├óÔé¼Ôäóve tested the NTaiCaseTest.rar this evening, in 4 games, running for 1 hour each.
I used AA 2.23 as the ├óÔé¼┼ôupper case unit names├óÔé¼┬Ø problem is most prominent in this mod compared to BA and CA.

I have good things and bad things to report.
First the good things:

• The learn file is fixed (partial , all used unit names in lower case, now has a efficiency value different from 14.
  Solobuild now response correctly to lower case unit names, regardless of unitname being upper case in AA-mod

Bad things:
Issue 1:
[VALUE] section in learn file still contains double unit names, in lower and UPPER case.
eg:
CORSOLAR=234.234;
corsolar=342.22; // Note different value :idea:
As the lower case unitnames now have an efficiency different from 14, the impact of this is might (however see end of issue 2 in next post) be minor

Issue 2:
Lengthy description, so I dedicated my next post to this...