Spring RTS Engine

Hey all.

Thought it was about time i tried to put down some thoughts on EE.

I know i dont know the game inside out like some of you guys and im probably missing the point of alot of stuff but still i have been playing RTS games for 10 years or more so that must count for something heh.

I have found it very hard to make choices of which unit to build, firstly because there is no manual that i know of listing the costs, ranges damages etc of the units, and i also dont know how the combat system is worked out, migitation etc so i dont know which weapons are good vs which targets etc.

There is alot of talk about counters and while there should obviously be counters, as you would make weapons for various tasks i get the feeling that there is something of a paper rock scissors thing going on and i really dont think that should be the case in a game with real world physics, for more information on this point read this link regarding SupCom = http://uk.pc.gamespy.com/pc/supreme-com ... 026p4.html

Basically things like aircraft should be small and fast moving so that a tank firing a cannon shell is going to miss, its not that the cannon cant fire at it or that it doesnt do any damge when it hits, it simply cant hit the target. perhaps it doesnt even have a fire arc on it. conversely the aircraft firing crappy little machine guns that are good vs weak armour air targets can hit the tank all day long, but it would need to if it wanted to have any chance of damaging it before the player died of old age. Machine guns simply wont penetrate the armour on the tank.

Getting back to not being able to choose which units to use.

All the level 1 URC units cost basically the same amount, take the same time to build, look the same, move at the same rate etc and have pretty similar hps. While there are units with roles i find that they are mostly incapable of performing their task. Artillery at level 1 is too short in range to be worthwhile, flamers have too little hps to get in close, rockets and plasma are far too similar and SAM's are pointless as virtually anything can take out an air target so why build a specific AA unit which cant do anything but fire vs air?

imo the flamers should be THE assault unit of choice they should be slow, hard hitting, close range and heavy on armour.

Plasmas should be the the general purpose unit, 'ship of the line' grunt, dogs body, whatever you wanna call it.

Rockets should have a range increase and serve as fire support / AA

Artillery should have a substantial range buff, its artillery thats what artillery is. LONG LONG range totally inaccurate indirect / blind firing basically pound the shit of of that stuff way over yonder.

These range changes would allow you to have flamers at the front, then plasma, then rockets, then arty. all firing at the same point.

Rather than having tech levels unlock things like assault vehicles (L3 ground) and artillery (L2 / L3 arty) each tech level would simply give you a better version, it would generally be better, harder, more cost effective etc. but retain the speeds as that is key to retaining low tech usefulness as you progress through the tech tree.

There should be about 6 types of aircraft :

transports and radar / scouts

Gunships these should be weak on hps, fast compared to ground units but not compared to air units, HARD hitting, strafe attack style.

AA, these take out bombers and gunships and are hard to hit with non AA weapons such as cannons etc. weak generally, fast, spamable.

AAA these take out the AA ships, even weaker and more spamable good for FA aside for taking out AA craft

Bombers, slow, heavy armour, hard hitting capable of bypassing nme lines and deep striking bases which to not have substantial AA / control of own airspace.

Could maybe have air work a bit different to ground in that not all would be available right at the start (tech 1)

perhaps something like

Tech 1 = Gunships and AA

Tech 2 = Better Gunships and AA + Transport and Radar

Tech 3 = Even better Gunships / AA / Transport / Radar (maybe stealth aspects to the transport and radar rather than properties like hps etc) and the introduction of the AAA and Bombers.

This would give you more tactical options with the introduction of tech level 2 and at level 3 would give you deep striking capabilties and also an advantage in the air sup battle.

I was also thinking that you could have more buildings, rather than having the vehicle plant make everything you could have 1 building for civilian type constructions, scouts, transports, mine layers, builders, radar and anti radar etc

Another building for general battle units and then a 3rd for racial specials such as stealth versions of battle units / civ units (where appropriate)

I realise that you dont want porcing to be easy, i dont want that either, but i think atm that defences are too weak, to the point where they arent worth buidling. (Least thats what i get told.. build units not defences, dont porc etc, if i shouldnt porc then why are there even defence units in the game??)

I kinda think that porcing should be at least semi viable for all races and also that the map choice should not dictate the team you use. atm on a flat map its best to GD, if you dont you lose, on hilly you go URC and shrug i dunno, maybe water would be NI i dunno i havent seen NI yet.

Possible fix for that would be URC units that are good on an open field, but the URC should not be as efficent at building this unit type as the GD, and so on.

Also the racial metal extractors are only applicable to tech level 1 and the commander cant build them which i dont much like, the fact that the commander cant build the stealth mex makes you want to not build any with him and wait until you can build a stealth version. And the fact that the stealth doesnt carry through the tech levels just kinda doesnt make any sense.

Ok thats about all i got atm, hope i havent ruffled too many feathers

Obviously its your mod Fang and you are going to make it as you see fit, just giving you another perspective to help you to deside what is best in your opinion from an informed position.

Look forward to playing with you all again soon,

Takecare all,

Guffrus

You need to learn the mod more Guff.

If you get swarmed by aircraft, without AA you will get pwned.

Defences are Fine, try building attack forces and using them for defense.

Arty at lv1 does exactly what it's supposed to do and if you mix them in with your regulars you will notice a difference.

Plasma, flat shot, rockets arced shot. THerefore the missles are backup because they are less damage less range but AOE.

Flamers are for special situations, like airlifting. They can take down a base in less than a minute if left unchecked.

Stealth/cloak mexes are weaker, have a decloak radius. The mexes the comm builds are much stronger in terms of HP.

Defences are very good, but you MUST back them up with units. A lone set of towers is not going to get you anywhere.

More buildings? HELL NO. There is no reason to add factories for scouts etc. Absolutely no reason.

Aircraft are perfectly fine as they are. You are not capable of winning with just aircraft (unless your opponent didn't build any AA).

Its how I say..."Its EXPAND and exterminate, not SIT AT YOUR BASE and Exterminate". Some of the defence's are underpowered, but they still will balence things out when your army is taking out their army in close proximity to your base.

Alright, I'll address your points, Guff.

About aircraft: tanks already have trouble hitting them.

Machine guns: there are no machine guns in the entire mod. The smallest weapon is a freaking MINIGUN!


Flamers: huge damage at melee range, flame goes through units
Plasma mechs: straight shot, high damage
Rocket mechs: Arcing shot, fire over other units, area of effect, decent against air

Lvl1 artillery are basically mortar-type units that can fire on the move, lvl2 is where you get the big guns. Oh, and artillery has never been about innaccuracy, not sure where you got that idea...

Defenses are quite strong when placed correctly.

A lot of the rest of what you said is already the case, I think you just need to play more.

Oh, and I always go GD, even on hilly maps. Learn to love the air transports. And an open map means more room for URC scout spiders to manuver, hence giving you a rediculous information advantage.

Im kinda excited so what the hell... WOOO look I modeled somthing in wings and it vaguely resembles what I want it to..!!!!

The much needed level 2 flame mech?

eh no

I assume it's the new body for URC lvl1...

Hurray, the first EE model not vertex edited!

EDIT: Guffrus - ever tried a Mammoth, Chernobyl or the GD lvl3 artillery?

Fanger wrote:Im kinda excited so what the hell... WOOO look I modeled somthing in wings and it vaguely resembles what I want it to..!!!!

Oh dude, Hell yeah, WOOT!!!

Out with 3do builder in with wings FTW!!!

kill the three subdivides in the middle, that is wastefull as they add no detail. I liked the other head more. oh well.

smoth wrote:Played a few games of EE tonight.

I am impressed I wondered if it was possible to porc in EE so I tried a few times. No mater what you do, the units will eventually break through your defenses. This is a replay of the last match I played. The whole time I thought the new guy red was doing bad as I kept knocking on blue's door. It may have been that I was playing urc but needless to say Porcing doesn't work. You simply cannot stop them well enough. He eventually over took me.

I watched as my enemy blue was building the massive level 3 defenses thinking wow, that guy surely has won! I resigned by giving my troops to red so I could see the rest of the battle. I even told the Red player that he was screwed! I watch the last of the game, chating away.

Red was being bombarded by the lrppc of the blue team and I thought, hell he is screwed. Then I remember the nuke artillery but red was building iontanks.. wtf right? watch and find out, this was one of the single most interesting games I have played in spring to date. The ending was cool!

http://cs.selu.edu/~ssmith/spring/good_game_of_EE.sdf

Gruffus, watch this ftw.

That head is almost exactly the same.. and the subdivide is really for the back and an Idea I had for the front that atm I dont know how to do..

smoth wrote:
Played a few games of EE tonight.

I am impressed I wondered if it was possible to porc in EE so I tried a few times. No mater what you do, the units will eventually break through your defenses. This is a replay of the last match I played. The whole time I thought the new guy red was doing bad as I kept knocking on blue's door. It may have been that I was playing urc but needless to say Porcing doesn't work. You simply cannot stop them well enough. He eventually over took me.

I watched as my enemy blue was building the massive level 3 defenses thinking wow, that guy surely has won! I resigned by giving my troops to red so I could see the rest of the battle. I even told the Red player that he was screwed! I watch the last of the game, chating away.

Red was being bombarded by the lrppc of the blue team and I thought, hell he is screwed. Then I remember the nuke artillery but red was building iontanks.. wtf right? watch and find out, this was one of the single most interesting games I have played in spring to date. The ending was cool!



http://cs.selu.edu/~ssmith/spring/good_game_of_EE.sdf

sure noobs get replays without asking, me i ask for a ROTW contender...never ever get one ;_;

Good to hear you finally took advise on switching to wings.

smoth wrote:Played a few games of EE tonight.

I am impressed I wondered if it was possible to porc in EE so I tried a few times. No mater what you do, the units will eventually break through your defenses. This is a replay of the last match I played. The whole time I thought the new guy red was doing bad as I kept knocking on blue's door. It may have been that I was playing urc but needless to say Porcing doesn't work. You simply cannot stop them well enough. He eventually over took me.

I watched as my enemy blue was building the massive level 3 defenses thinking wow, that guy surely has won! I resigned by giving my troops to red so I could see the rest of the battle. I even told the Red player that he was screwed! I watch the last of the game, chating away.

Red was being bombarded by the lrppc of the blue team and I thought, hell he is screwed. Then I remember the nuke artillery but red was building iontanks.. wtf right? watch and find out, this was one of the single most interesting games I have played in spring to date. The ending was cool!

http://cs.selu.edu/~ssmith/spring/good_game_of_EE.sdf

Hey thats me! Can't believe I lost.... Those nuke artillary are crazy useful.

lol. That was a good game though. I was just miffed because I had to take over for wasp.

Forboding Angel wrote:Aircraft are perfectly fine as they are. You are not capable of winning with just aircraft (unless your opponent didn't build any AA).

Oh, but how I remember when you could!

I played a few EE games recently.

I wondered why it is, that i hardly use any kind of radar.

In other mods, radar is absolutely essential to gameplay, because it is the only reliable way to keep track of your enemies in most situations.

In EE, radar is useless, as all units have absolutely HUGE LoS, even on big maps its still enough to see a great deal of the map with a few cleverly moving units.

Also, both (all?) factions have these cheap and very effective invisible cameras, providing even more LoS.

Then, scout craft are cheap and there are also these mobile radar units, which have a radar nearly as large as their LoS, so they actually dont need one.

I wouldnt complain about radar being useless, when most combat happens with LoS anyway, thanks to the afore mentioned reasons, but useless radar has a few nasty implications:

- Jamming is useless too
- URC is supposed to gain informatinal advantage, thats not possible with overall huge LoS and cams/flying scouts for both for the same cost
- Units that are supposed to be inaccurate, like artillery, just get to use LoS
- Defensive lines are weak when you can easily spy on them
- Most units have LoS equal or nearing their max weapon range, making mobile radar absolete

In conclsion:

In order for URC mexes to be useful, jammers have to be useful.
In order for jammers to be useful, radar has to be useful.
In order for radar to be useful, LoS of the units must be way smaller than the range of mobile radars, and these must be smaller than static ones.

At least once faction, probably GD, should not have cloaked cameras, so they have to rely on radar.

Non-radar aircraft should have greatly reduced LoS, so radar aircraft are useful.

watch the demo I posted, radar is usefull

@andreask

Oh please.

Whatever dude.